TXS cyclist Posted February 13, 2008 Share Boeing, I know what you are saying, and have also questioned a lot of things around the discovery team, because there are reasons to believe that maybe they sometimes did not play fair. However I believe that you cannot say someone is scum if they have not been found guilty or proven guilty Its more the way its been said, iso what's been said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXS cyclist Posted February 13, 2008 Share Thank you Pilks. You reading my mind..! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boeing Posted February 13, 2008 Share Texas Sally, I hear what you are saying. No one can take away what Lance did, whether he doped or not is irrelevant, as I believe that everyone did at that stage. He is a remarkable man, but I don't like to glorify him or any other cyclist for that matter. To me, Greg Lemond was a classier cyclist; more tact, more talent and and no bad reputation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXS cyclist Posted February 13, 2008 Share Texas Sally' date=' I hear what you are saying. No one can take away what Lance did, whether he doped or not is irrelevant, as I believe that everyone did at that stage. He is a remarkable man, but I don't like to glorify him or any other cyclist for that matter. To me, Greg Lemond was a classier cyclist; more tact, more talent and and no bad reputation! [/quote'] yes, but you also cannot be"little" someone if you do not have the proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linnega Posted February 13, 2008 Share so what about Rabobank' date=' Tmobile(highRoad), Saunier Duval and cofidis?? this is ridicilous double standards![/quote']I don't think its fair to compare. Astana had numerous problems last year including their two top riders being found guilty of blood doping. The team seems to have made no effort to demonstrate that they are riding clean with additional, published internal tests as the French teams have done since the Cofidis scandal (ie the David Millar scandal) and High Road and CSC have done the past two years. Rabobank have by-and-large avoided any scandals with the exception of the Rasmussen issue (although I believe it is more to do with them being regarded as a national treasure than being genuinely clean). The management was replaced on the back of that single scandal. Astana's response to the problem was to see the national federation hand down an incorrectly light sentence on Vinokourov and then replace team management with a directeur that has been battling scandals throughout his career. In modern days, LA would have been fired by his team and Bruyneel replaced, except at Astana. Bruyneel brought with him a rider that has been linked continuously with Puerto and expects to headline with Contador without making an effort to clear his name. The ASO cannot risk it. They cannot afford for a team that takes doping in cycling so lightly to be at the Tour and risk losing their TV contracts because of it. The Tour is a business and if broadcasters don't pay and broadcast the Tour they will lose money. This is professional sport and its time that Bruyneel and his mates start to understand what that means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boeing Posted February 13, 2008 Share Texas Sally' date=' I hear what you are saying. No one can take away what Lance did, whether he doped or not is irrelevant, as I believe that everyone did at that stage. He is a remarkable man, but I don't like to glorify him or any other cyclist for that matter. To me, Greg Lemond was a classier cyclist; more tact, more talent and and no bad reputation! [/quote'] yes, but you also cannot be"little" someone if you do not have the proof. and I agree with you 100%. I don't think I am belittling Lance, I have read a lot of articles, spoken to people within the cycling world, medical world; I myself am studying Bsc Sport Science majoring in Physiology, Biochemistry HMS; and as a result am just giving my honest, non-biased opinion that i have formulated over a couple of years. I love the sport, not the sportsmen/sportswomen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boeing Posted February 13, 2008 Share so what about Rabobank' date=' Tmobile(highRoad), Saunier Duval and cofidis?? this is ridicilous double standards![/quote']I don't think its fair to compare. Astana had numerous problems last year including their two top riders being found guilty of blood doping. The team seems to have made no effort to demonstrate that they are riding clean with additional, published internal tests as the French teams have done since the Cofidis scandal (ie the David Millar scandal) and High Road and CSC have done the past two years. Rabobank have by-and-large avoided any scandals with the exception of the Rasmussen issue (although I believe it is more to do with them being regarded as a national treasure than being genuinely clean). The management was replaced on the back of that single scandal. Astana's response to the problem was to see the national federation hand down an incorrectly light sentence on Vinokourov and then replace team management with a directeur that has been battling scandals throughout his career. In modern days, LA would have been fired by his team and Bruyneel replaced, except at Astana. Bruyneel brought with him a rider that has been linked continuously with Puerto and expects to headline with Contador without making an effort to clear his name. The ASO cannot risk it. They cannot afford for a team that takes doping in cycling so lightly to be at the Tour and risk losing their TV contracts because of it. The Tour is a business and if broadcasters don't pay and broadcast the Tour they will lose money. This is professional sport and its time that Bruyneel and his mates start to understand what that means. Superbly said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXS cyclist Posted February 13, 2008 Share Sorry Boeing, Not saying you belittled LA or Johan Bruyneel.I was reacting to Cruzie's post. "How was the changes better, Johan Bruyneel & Discovery was one of the dirtiest teams in the history of cycling!!!! Now the dirtbag homself is heading up Astana with his Discovery Dopers!!!!ASO aint Stupid!!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linnega Posted February 13, 2008 Share It is interesting that we still have this debate. The foreign mags (particularly CycleSport and Procycling, to a lesser extent) talk of the late 90s and last five years as years that may as well be written out of the record books. The shift in attitude is absolute. It seems that the consensus is that the results are simlar to those that were achieved by the East German Olympians years ago. Although the records still stand and there was no official striking of the results it is commonly known that those results are more based on illegal drug regimes than sporting prowess. I don't believe that cycling will be able to look at the past ten years any differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boeing Posted February 13, 2008 Share No worries Texas. It is all good, I understand where you are coming from and I do agree with you on your "Innocent until proven guilty" stance. I see things from a slightly different perspective, as does everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boeing Posted February 13, 2008 Share Slightly off topic, but in relation to the East Germans. Did you know that they used to get women athletes pregnant so that their events fell within the first trimester of pregnancy. The reason being that during this period, all the hormones are pumping madly and as a result the women's performance enhances. After the event/s they would abort the pregnancy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trispoke Posted February 13, 2008 Share Frankly, not getting caught = clean as far as the world in general is concerned. Ever heard of 'innocent until proven guilty'? If you want to kick teams out because of past misdeeds, a whole bunch should be left out, not just Astana. This hurts the sport more than it could ever help it. I for one will just not bother with the Tour this year. It will be a shame if I miss good performances by Barloworld, but if the best teams and riders are not there, what is the point really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boeing Posted February 13, 2008 Share Frankly' date=' not getting caught = clean as far as the world in general is concerned. Ever heard of 'innocent until proven guilty'?If you want to kick teams out because of past misdeeds, a whole bunch should be left out, not just Astana. This hurts the sport more than it could ever help it. I for one will just not bother with the Tour this year. It will be a shame if I miss good performances by Barloworld, but if the best teams and riders are not there, what is the point really? [/quote'] The point is to rid the sport of druggies. There is a bad cloud hanging over that team's head, and rightly so, they have been shown the door. Too bad for the likes of Levi who is at the end of his career, but lets be honest, he only showed true tour winning capability when he got onboard with Bruynell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunky Posted February 13, 2008 Share .... To me' date=' Greg Lemond was a classier cyclist; more tact, more talent and and no bad reputation! [/quote'] Boeing you are way off the mark there. Greg Lemond was the innovator of EPO my friend. It was him together with American riders on the 7 eleven team that were the first to be reportedly using EPO. Marty Nothstein the rider from USA who won the 2000 Olympics in the sprint ain sydney once joked with me. He said if WADA spent one Dollar on reasearch for dope testing, the 'Americans' were spending Ten dollars on ways to beat the test. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Name Funrider Posted February 13, 2008 Share Contador was only banned from racing in Italy cos he was "mentioned "in Dr. Fuentes papers--Armstrong was mentioned in another infamous Doping doctors papers and nothing happened to USP,Also i dont care what anyone say about VINO,he is a great and courageous rider who got caught,he will do his time;without any fuss and come back for a couple of years hopefully ;he is sorely missed by many cycling fans.(not like some Americans i can name)VIVA BORAT. NNF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chunky Posted February 13, 2008 Share Slightly off topic' date=' but in relation to the East Germans. Did you know that they used to get women athletes pregnant so that their events fell within the first trimester of pregnancy. The reason being that during this period, all the hormones are pumping madly and as a result the women's performance enhances. After the event/s they would abort the pregnancy [/quote'] Not 100% true.... It only happened to one woman. At first they though it was because of a failed pregnancy but was in fact due to her using HCG (Human Chorionic Ganodotrophins) without the Team doctors knowing. Its still very difficult if impossible to catch a woman on testosterone as there is no natural epitestosterone to measure against. The reason that she was so strong was because she had used HCG right through her course. to not allow the T/E ratios to exceed 6 to 1. Another factor was the result of Pausine. Growth hormones extracted from a Pig. Sounds unreal but this was actually the strongest GH ever discovered. The East Germans innitialy only tried this out on Woman untill the 1988 olympics. Pregnant woman are in fact not stronger at all ......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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