Specialized bad after sale service.

[Rudi Pollard]

Corrosion by its very nature is a degradation of a metals structure. Does that make it easier to understand?

No need to be condescending, I was merely asking a question. You can get a thin layer of corrosion on a metal surface which might only lift the paint. I have seen many metal surfaces where after a bit of elbow grease you get rid of the corrosion which has formed, paint over it, for it never to be an issue again.

 

Thus my question, did only the paint lift or is the carbon actually damaged?

[(Deon)]

No need to be condescending, I was merely asking a question. You can get a thin layer of corrosion on a metal surface which might only lift the paint. I have seen many metal surfaces where after a bit of elbow grease you get rid of the corrosion which has formed, paint over it, for it never to be an issue again.

 

Thus my question, did only the paint lift or is the carbon actually damaged?

Well this is really what I was wanting from the OP, the request for comment in writing from Spez re the integrity. If they are willing to state that it is fine and not a risk to life and limb, then OP can proceed with the quick fix of "elbow grease".

 

If not, then I think for closure we would all like to know why or how paint can have an affect on the structural integrity that places the rider at risk of injury with continued use.

 

Arendse, you need to get something in writing about the integrity of the frame.

[raptor-22]

The frame can only be assessed via x-Ray or removal of the drop out which is effectively a destructive method.

The simple solution is warranty the frame on safety grounds and make some friends.

[JXV]

Have any one heard of galvanic corrosion that only take place between carbon and aluminium.

 

Some interesting information

Carbon, corrodes, you get galvanic corrosion setting up wherever there are metal inserts on the frame and the thing becomes one huge great. Carbon corrodes extremely slow. I'd be dust before it happens. However since carbon is more cathodic, it can cause more anodic metals such as aluminum to corrode faster

Yes carbon is much more noble on the galvanic series than alu. the carbon fibres are also electrically conductive.

 

So, if carbon fibres are in direct contact with the alu part ( no glue or resin in the way) AND both parts are wetted by the same body of water AND the water contains sufficient electrolytes (dissolved salts) then a weak battery is set up (and shorted out) in which the alu would be the anode and alu metal would be corroded to alu oxides and or alu salts at the alu/water surface.

 

Conditions are not ideal for this to occur in dry components bonded under a paint covering such as on this frame. No galvanic corrosion can occur without water being present and in contact with both conductors. However, if there is a breather hole in that seatstay through which water could enter and accumulate at the unpainted inside surfaces of the joint then the game is on for galvanic corrosion.....

 

For galvanic corrosion to be a factor you would have to show how the joint got wet and stayed wet for a long period of time.

 

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Edited April 21, 2016 by JXV

[raptor-22]

No you would just have to show that aluminum oxide is present.

[Fat fish]

This quote taken from a international bike forum

 

The problem the guy had with aluminum was due to galvanic corrosion and poor electrical insulation between the carbon and aluminum, not because the carbon absorbed water. Water was a factor, but would have been just on the outside surface.

 

 

So, that's dumb.

[Butterbean]

So, as an early contributor, I've been watching this with interest. I have refrained from commenting due to the attitude of some responders, but I just want some closure.

 

First question for the OP - what are you hoping to achieve with this thread? Are you hoping you could get a whole bunch of Internet people to agree with you, and therefore have the "ammo" required to go back to spez and hope they do something for you?

 

Secondly, to all the guys who think that spez should be giving him a new bike - how would you be able to prove that the fault is not a non paint related issue? See, the way I see it is, the paint failed. OP says it bubbled from the inside, but the pictures cannot prove that without doubt. However, Nick the paint down to the aluminium inserts, whether by a shoe, a cyclists clipping you from behind, loading it on a car, or even leaning it up against a wall in a room and having the paint scratched off, and then of course all that alu corrosion would have happened.

 

So, put yourself in spez' shoes. Do they just blindly have faith that the OP has spent just shy of 30k on a bike, stored it in a room, and despite seeing the problem early on, now brings you a bike that's out of a paint warrantee, and you should replace said frame? Also, let bear in mind that the frame is now 4 years old, so the chances of spez local and international having replacement frames available is slim. Secondly, our OP still cannot prove that there is no other damage at fault here for the fault.

 

Yes, it would be nice of them, but I'm pretty sure in all of your businesses you wouldn't take the OP's side and replace a frame, taking into account what's happened to the exchange rate too. Also, it's not for them to now decide on the safety of the frame. They have every right to tell you it's unrideable if they do choose. You still failed to act on the issue when it came up, in time for spez to react and keep their warrantee.

 

Lastly, can someone else list the brands who have a limitless lifetime warranty on their frames, including paint??

[raptor-22]

plenty brands have life time warranty on frame and fork.

 

and I know of several of those who have replaced frames where corrosion could affect the structure. No surface scrath is going to get through the clear coat, paint and carbon fibre to get to the joint to cause corrosion. 

 

Paint bubbling has been seen on many brands of bike. Often its due to poor application of the paint or clear coat and this almost nevers leads to structural problem. Often the manufacturer or distributor has the paint touched up. Cannondale went through a bad paint patch between 2003 to 2006. And Again in about 2008 and 2009. Paint issues are not uncommon.

However they are generally in areas where the frame is exposed to sweat of where the bike is clamped into bike carrier. Never have I seen paint bubbling at a carbon to aluminium joint where corrosion is not present. 

How so?

If the damage is severe enough to cause carbon to be exposed and allow water with impurities to get between the carbon and aluminum then typically the bike has been pretty badly damaged.

 

Lastly, most companies seem to be very willing to provide their end user with the benefit of the doubt in cases where the causal of the damage can be attributed either way. Most offer to replace the defective component. 

Edited April 21, 2016 by raptor-22

[MJ the Expat]

I am not sure why the fact that the OP waited two years to act on the bumps on his frame should make a difference?

 

I mean the question at hand is should the bumps have been there in the first place? Surely it can be proven those bumps did not form over night.

 

If the OP made a mistake, it was that he was too honest.

Jip, if he took the bike in and said, heck I noticed these bumps yesterday when I washed my bike, I bet there would have not been an issue.

[Butterbean]

plenty brands have life time warranty on frame and fork.

 

and I know of several of those who have replaced frames where corrosion could affect the structure. No surface scrath is going to get through the clear coat, paint and carbon fibre to get to the joint to cause corrosion.

 

Paint bubbling has been seen on many brands of bike. Often its due to poor application of the paint or clear coat and this almost nevers leads to structural problem. Often the manufacturer or distributor has the paint touched up. Cannondale went through a bad paint patch between 2003 to 2006. And Again in about 2008 and 2009. Paint issues are not uncommon.

However they are generally in areas where the frame is exposed to sweat of where the bike is clamped into bike carrier. Never have I seen paint bubbling at a carbon to aluminium joint where corrosion is not present.

How so?

If the damage is severe enough to cause carbon to be exposed and allow water with impurities to get between the carbon and aluminum then typically the bike has been pretty badly damaged.

 

Lastly, most companies seem to be very willing to provide their end user with the benefit of the doubt in cases where the causal of the damage can be attributed either way. Most offer to replace the defective component.

Okay. So its a paint issue then, right?

 

Their paint warrantee is two years. He brought the problem up too late. Case closed, right?

[Butterbean]

I am not sure why the fact that the OP waited two years to act on the bumps on his frame should make a difference?

 

I mean the question at hand is should the bumps have been there in the first place? Surely it can be proven those bumps did not form over night.

 

If the OP made a mistake, it was that he was too honest.

Jip, if he took the bike in and said, heck I noticed these bumps yesterday when I washed my bike, I bet there would have not been an issue.

Nope. It's all on the owner to report a fault in time. He failed to do so, so spez is no longer liable. Done.

[stringbean]

I'm a bit confused with the time line here.Bike was bought in 2012,OP saw bump on frame a year later and then contacted specialized after another year.That makes it 2014.

We now in 2016,has he been fighting with specialized for the last 2 years or did this all just happen now 4 years after purchase?

[raptor-22]

Okay. So its a paint issue then, right?

 

Their paint warrantee is two years. He brought the problem up too late. Case closed, right?

 

 

you seem argumentative and very protective over specialized. Do you work for them or just hoping they reward your forum behaviour with a "gift".

 

paint is a symptom. The root cause lies below. But since you prefer to look at the issue as shallowly as possible I won't try to convince you otherwise. The OP is learning enough about how to fight a BS assessment with facts if he choses to take it further. 

 

Paint doesn't just bubble off, unless its applied poorly. Then the problem would be widespread on a particular frame. this problem is localised to a aluminum to carbon bond area. That alone is enough to trigger a "houston we have a problem" response. Therefore its a structural problem.

[Butterbean]

I'm a bit confused with the time line here.Bike was bought in 2012,OP saw bump on frame a year later and then contacted specialized after another year.That makes it 2014.

We now in 2016,has he been fighting with specialized for the last 2 years or did this all just happen now 4 years after purchase?

Nope. Reported it lately and expects them to replace.

[Butterbean]

you seem argumentative and very protective over specialized. Do you work for them or just hoping they reward your forum behaviour with a "gift".

 

paint is a symptom. The root cause lies below. But since you prefer to look at the issue as shallowly as possible I won't try to convince you otherwise. The OP is learning enough about how to fight a BS assessment with facts if he choses to take it further.

 

Paint doesn't just bubble off, unless its applied poorly. Then the problem would be widespread on a particular frame. this problem is localised to a aluminum to carbon bond area. That alone is enough to trigger a "houston we have a problem" response. Therefore its a structural problem.

I'll make it clear that I have nothing to do with specialized. I have a spez saddle and that's as far as my association with the brand goes (in fact I've blacked out the decals on the saddle as I don't like them very much anyway, thanks to their behaviour with the cafe roubaix incident, and they way they treated retailers when converting to concept stores, and their similarity with Apple - good product, but overpriced and too many fanboys). I do, however, have a problem with someone bashing a brand on social media because he didn't get his way. It's happening far too often, and we forget that you're potentislly putting people's jobs and livelihoods at risk when you selfishly complain.

 

The fact here is, the OP spends 20 something grand on a frame. He sees a problem and thinks he's smart enough to assess it, calls it okay, and "leave it back in the room" for the next three years. Then, the problem has gotten worse, past the point that he, or anyone else can prove it's more than a paint issue, takes it in, and expects to be taken care of. Now, he's stated he wants to be put back in the same position, with a 2013 frame, knowing full well, I'm sure, that the suppliers are highly unlikely to have any still lying around. So if they agreed, I'm quite certain he would be on this site complaining that he wasnt offered a 2016 frame instead, or forced to pay in for the same. Secondly, this is someone who doesn't seem to take the best of care of his bike, as pointed out previously thanks to the pictures. I doubt he's watched exactly where that frame has been thrown around.

 

But my biggest problem is this. He comes online, slams a brand for his negligence, disses another brand, and expects the whole world to sympathise and be his social justice warriors. But still, to what end? Will he print out all our replies and attach it to his mail? "hey spez, check it out, these guys agree with me so I want a new frame."

 

He's lost out. Granted. But he's put himself in a position where the warrantee is no longer able to protect him (due to his own negligence), and now he wants it back. That's not fair or right...

 

Get the frame repaired, have your personal feelings about a brand, and move on with your life. Small school fees. I doubt it would be an expensive or lengthy repair at all, and would be perfectly safe to ride.

 

Okay, that's me out. Im done with this one. OP, good luck with this story, I hope you learn something valuable.

[Patchelicious]

you seem argumentative and very protective over specialized. Do you work for them or just hoping they reward your forum behaviour with a "gift".

 

Snip*

 

 

To be fair, as do you.

 

You seem to have used this platform have a go at Spez and on several occasions mentioned that there are alternatives. Even stating that you "cancelled" an order from Spez based on this thread and rather opting for a Colnago or Look, I think it was. If I send you similar threads about those two brands, would you cancel those orders too? ????

 

So the very argument of being argumentative and biased can be turned right around.

 

Fact is that this frame/paint issue should not have occurred. Agreed.

 

However no manufacturer can guarantee that all of their frames will be absolutely perfect, hence them offering warranties, this is so that if you spot a mistake on their behalf that you can point it out and they will rectify it. If you fail to act and don't point out their mistake within the agreed period, then you really cannot be angry at them.

 

Let's be honest here, Spez is known for many things bad things, but *** product quality is not one of them, so let's not be irrational about a fringe case where the purchaser never acted when he should have.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Patchelicious