Nino's Suspension Choice

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

wow ......amazing explanation thanks

Pleasure, man. Just getting a bit tired of these "XYZ copied ABC" claims, when people have clearly done zero investigation. 

 

Also - you'll see here that despite the differences between the designs themselves, there's only so many ways to design a frame once you've decided where you're going to put your shock. There NEEDS to be 2 triangles, and you can only get so creative with a 3-sided structure before it won't satisfy your needs for structural rigidity. 

[BrandonF_]

Scott: See - direct attachment to front triangle at lower pivot point, no extra link in rear triangle. Pivot at the top.

 

Linkage driven single pivot

http://images.singletracks.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/spark-hero-1200x1056.png

Giant Anthem. Linkage between front and rear triangle at the bottom. No pivot IN the rear triangle. Upper linkage as well. Maestro (effectively an early DW Link)

 

http://g01.a.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1Xid.JVXXXXbFXpXXq6xXFXXXg/GIANT-New-Arrival-Professional-Fashion-Frame-Apperance-Anthem-27-5-FR-font-b-MTB-b-font.jpg

 

 

Specialized. Direct connection to the front triangle at the lower linkage, but a further link on the chainstays before the rear axle. Upper linkage as well. Horst Link design aka FSR aka Giddy-Up link and many more bikes use this, now that the patent has run out.

 

http://www.sicklines.com/gallery/data/1023/Enduro-evo-ccdb-blue.jpg

 

 

PYGA - Direct attachment to front triangle at main pivot point, but with extra pivot above rear axle on seat stay. Four Bar Linkage, which is essentially a fancy single pivot design as the rear axle and chainstay connect to the front triangle in a single unit and as such it has a "single pivot" dictating the trajectory of the rear wheel. Many others use this as well.

 

http://www.racunbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/120-detail_1.jpg

 

Trek: ABP / Split Pivot design - rear triangle attaches directly to front traingle at main pivot, but there's another pivot ON the rear axle (hence split pivot) and the shock is attached to both the rocker and the rear triangle in a sort of "floating" position.

 

Essentially a very fancy single pivot due to the fact that there's no pivot between the rear wheel and the main pivot. But it's a very efficient one due to the floating nature of the shock mounting and the positioning of the main pivot (above the chainline)

 

http://www.hargreaves-cycles.co.uk/smsimg/1/mdb-f12163_asset_337512.jpg

 

The EVILs are ALSO a linkage driven single pivot. A very fancy one, but still a single pivot. No pivot between main pivot and rear axle, but a very convoluted (and darn sexy) linkage design to control the suspension action to Dave Weagle's liking.

 

 

http://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2015/01/P1270205.jpg

 

 

Ibis - DW Link. Essentially another Dave Weagle Maestro-Esque design, with a linkage between the main pivot point and the rear triangle, as well as between the shock and seatstays. Loads of other bikes use this design as well (Turner, De Vinci, etc) and it's the closest to the Giant's design due to the lower linkage. http://img.ecplaza.com/my/xedapwheels/8.jpg

 

So next time, before you say "it's just like an XYZ" - stop. Think about it for a second, and then actually LOOK at the design before making a fool of yourself.

 

//Rant off//

Proper Reply. As usual,..thx Myles. (From these we learn)

[Christofison]

I was expecting a rant to come from Myles, but I really wasn't expecting it to be such a kind, caring, detailed and informative response. And I guess thanks to Scott for changing up their suspension design so that everyone can ask stupid questions/make uneducated comments which leads to some real useful education like this. [emoji106]

 

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

I was expecting a rant to come from Myles, but I really wasn't expecting it to be such a kind, caring, detailed and informative response. And I guess thanks to Scott for changing up their suspension design so that everyone can ask stupid questions/make uneducated comments which leads to some real useful education like this. [emoji106]

 

Sent from my E5823 using Tapatalk

LOL. Erm, Thanks. 

[RockHound]

Just checked this tread.....interesting choice of semantics. Was just thinking well if he's been bust we all in serious trouble! Glad to see it's got to do with shocks and stuff!

[Pointer]

Scott: See - direct attachment to front triangle at lower pivot point, no extra link in rear triangle. Pivot at the top. 

 

Linkage driven single pivot

http://images.singletracks.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/spark-hero-1200x1056.png

Giant Anthem. Linkage between front and rear triangle at the bottom. No pivot IN the rear triangle. Upper linkage as well. Maestro (effectively an early DW Link)

 

http://g01.a.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1Xid.JVXXXXbFXpXXq6xXFXXXg/GIANT-New-Arrival-Professional-Fashion-Frame-Apperance-Anthem-27-5-FR-font-b-MTB-b-font.jpg

 

 

Specialized. Direct connection to the front triangle at the lower linkage, but a further link on the chainstays before the rear axle. Upper linkage as well. Horst Link design aka FSR aka Giddy-Up link and many more bikes use this, now that the patent has run out. 

 

http://www.sicklines.com/gallery/data/1023/Enduro-evo-ccdb-blue.jpg

 

 

PYGA - Direct attachment to front triangle at main pivot point, but with extra pivot above rear axle on seat stay. Four Bar Linkage, which is essentially a fancy single pivot design as the rear axle and chainstay connect to the front triangle in a single unit and as such it has a "single pivot" dictating the trajectory of the rear wheel. Many others use this as well.

 

http://www.racunbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/120-detail_1.jpg

 

Trek: ABP / Split Pivot design - rear triangle attaches directly to front traingle at main pivot, but there's another pivot ON the rear axle (hence split pivot) and the shock is attached to both the rocker and the rear triangle in a sort of "floating" position.

 

Essentially a very fancy single pivot due to the fact that there's no pivot between the rear wheel and the main pivot. But it's a very efficient one due to the floating nature of the shock mounting and the positioning of the main pivot (above the chainline)

 

http://www.hargreaves-cycles.co.uk/smsimg/1/mdb-f12163_asset_337512.jpg

 

The EVILs are ALSO a linkage driven single pivot. A very fancy one, but still a single pivot. No pivot between main pivot and rear axle, but a very convoluted (and darn sexy) linkage design to control the suspension action to Dave Weagle's liking. 

 

 

http://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2015/01/P1270205.jpg

 

 

Ibis - DW Link. Essentially another Dave Weagle Maestro-Esque design, with a linkage between the main pivot point and the rear triangle, as well as between the shock and seatstays. Loads of other bikes use this design as well (Turner, De Vinci, etc) and it's the closest to the Giant's design due to the lower linkage. http://img.ecplaza.com/my/xedapwheels/8.jpg

 

So next time, before you say "it's just like an XYZ" - stop. Think about it for a second, and then actually LOOK at the design before making a fool of yourself. 

 

//Rant off//

 

wow ......amazing explanation thanks

+1

[Christie]

Pleasure, man. Just getting a bit tired of these "XYZ copied ABC" claims, when people have clearly done zero investigation. 

 

Also - you'll see here that despite the differences between the designs themselves, there's only so many ways to design a frame once you've decided where you're going to put your shock. There NEEDS to be 2 triangles, and you can only get so creative with a 3-sided structure before it won't satisfy your needs for structural rigidity.

 

+1, super nice post.

How about saying which one is the best, to keep things going

[jcmeyerSS]

Scott: See - direct attachment to front triangle at lower pivot point, no extra link in rear triangle. Pivot at the top.

 

Linkage driven single pivot

http://images.singletracks.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/spark-hero-1200x1056.png

Giant Anthem. Linkage between front and rear triangle at the bottom. No pivot IN the rear triangle. Upper linkage as well. Maestro (effectively an early DW Link)

 

http://g01.a.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1Xid.JVXXXXbFXpXXq6xXFXXXg/GIANT-New-Arrival-Professional-Fashion-Frame-Apperance-Anthem-27-5-FR-font-b-MTB-b-font.jpg

 

 

Specialized. Direct connection to the front triangle at the lower linkage, but a further link on the chainstays before the rear axle. Upper linkage as well. Horst Link design aka FSR aka Giddy-Up link and many more bikes use this, now that the patent has run out.

 

http://www.sicklines.com/gallery/data/1023/Enduro-evo-ccdb-blue.jpg

 

 

PYGA - Direct attachment to front triangle at main pivot point, but with extra pivot above rear axle on seat stay. Four Bar Linkage, which is essentially a fancy single pivot design as the rear axle and chainstay connect to the front triangle in a single unit and as such it has a "single pivot" dictating the trajectory of the rear wheel. Many others use this as well.

 

http://www.racunbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/120-detail_1.jpg

 

Trek: ABP / Split Pivot design - rear triangle attaches directly to front traingle at main pivot, but there's another pivot ON the rear axle (hence split pivot) and the shock is attached to both the rocker and the rear triangle in a sort of "floating" position.

 

Essentially a very fancy single pivot due to the fact that there's no pivot between the rear wheel and the main pivot. But it's a very efficient one due to the floating nature of the shock mounting and the positioning of the main pivot (above the chainline)

 

http://www.hargreaves-cycles.co.uk/smsimg/1/mdb-f12163_asset_337512.jpg

 

The EVILs are ALSO a linkage driven single pivot. A very fancy one, but still a single pivot. No pivot between main pivot and rear axle, but a very convoluted (and darn sexy) linkage design to control the suspension action to Dave Weagle's liking.

 

 

http://singletrackworld.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2015/01/P1270205.jpg

 

 

Ibis - DW Link. Essentially another Dave Weagle Maestro-Esque design, with a linkage between the main pivot point and the rear triangle, as well as between the shock and seatstays. Loads of other bikes use this design as well (Turner, De Vinci, etc) and it's the closest to the Giant's design due to the lower linkage. http://img.ecplaza.com/my/xedapwheels/8.jpg

 

So next time, before you say "it's just like an XYZ" - stop. Think about it for a second, and then actually LOOK at the design before making a fool of yourself.

 

//Rant off//

Boom there it is. Thanx myles Edited July 4, 2016 by jcmeyerSS

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

+1, super nice post.

How about saying which one is the best, to keep things going

LOL. 

 

Well, the old scott wasn't, that's for sure... too linear, even by their own admission (as soon as they launched the current one, that is)

 

Essentially you needed to lock it out in order to climb without bobbing harder than a pre-teen at a Justin Bieber concert. 

[WrightJnr]

@Myles has now given me a headache and I'm going to need to sleep.

 

Think we can close TheHub down now after that post. We done here folks. Thanks all. Good night.

[droo]

Mayhem - if I'm not mistaken, the only way the new Spark can work is if there's flex in the seatstays, which although technically not a pivot is still a pivot... which would make it a hybrid between linkage-driven SP, 4 bar and softtail? Similar concept to the Canyon Lux.

 

Evil, the older Commencals and a few others are true LDSP, but this isn't quite.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Mayhem - if I'm not mistaken, the only way the new Spark can work is if there's flex in the seatstays, which although technically not a pivot is still a pivot... which would make it a hybrid between linkage-driven SP, 4 bar and softtail? Similar concept to the Canyon Lux.

 

Evil, the older Commencals and a few others are true LDSP, but this isn't quite.

yeah, and like the new Silverback Sesta "Flexstay" stuff. 

[karma]

LOL. 

 

Well, the old scott wasn't, that's for sure... too linear, even by their own admission (as soon as they launched the current one, that is)

 

Essentially you needed to lock it out in order to climb without bobbing harder than a pre-teen at a Justin Bieber concert. 

 

good reply Myles, but let's not move past the fact that all these frames are still made from the same carbon sheets in the same factory...

[Rocket-Boy]

+1, super nice post.

How about saying which one is the best, to keep things going

Its too far away from Friday for that.

[NicoBoshoff]

Still looks like the Giant...

[madbradd]

Mayhem - if I'm not mistaken, the only way the new Spark can work is if there's flex in the seatstays, which although technically not a pivot is still a pivot... which would make it a hybrid between linkage-driven SP, 4 bar and softtail? Similar concept to the Canyon Lux.

 

Evil, the older Commencals and a few others are true LDSP, but this isn't quite.

Was also going to ask what happend to the seat/chainstay pivot.

 

yeah, and like the new Silverback Sesta "Flexstay" stuff. 

 

What's interesting with the Sesta is that the rear triangle is a closed triangle (like the Maestro), but that it doesn't have the additional lower linkage (like the spark). not sure how a flex stay would work with a closed triangle but I assume it has to do with their funny looking "rocker".

 

https://www.google.co.za/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.silverbacklab.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F08%2FSESTA-PRO.png&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.silverbacklab.com%2Fbike%2Fmountain%2Fsesta-race%2F&docid=jqVKNGWl2AR4MM&tbnid=KJHvsjVD1_wknM%3A&w=1573&h=850&safe=off&bih=995&biw=1920&ved=0ahUKEwjhytjjn9zNAhUCXBQKHdlZAtAQMwgaKAAwAA&iact=mrc&uact=8