NelAndre Posted June 29, 2017 Share Hope this helps....Ah, great thanks it is a real help. deonkretch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shebeen Posted June 29, 2017 Share but it is. It's got an uninterrupted bar from the main pivot to the axle. Hence, single pivot. It's a linkage actuated single pivot design. Yes, it has flex in the seatstays, but that doesn't mean it's not a single pivot. main reason why i chose not to study this sort of thing further. So thanks to the linkage it has two pivot points, but is still a single pivot - I understand! At least I learnt something todayhttp://fullsus.co.za/rear-suspension-designs-explained/ next dumb question. what does FSR mean, just industry hocus pocushttps://www.specialized.com/us/en/fsr-suspension can FSR be horst link/single pivot/whatever? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PregoRoll Posted June 29, 2017 Share main reason why i chose not to study this sort of thing further. So thanks to the linkage it has two pivot points, but is still a single pivot - I understand! At least I learnt something todayhttp://fullsus.co.za/rear-suspension-designs-explained/ next dumb question. what does FSR mean, just industry hocus pocushttps://www.specialized.com/us/en/fsr-suspension can FSR be horst link/single pivot/whatever?Excuse the crude cut and paste. This is from the SPC Website: "FSR" or "Future Shock Rear" was the original name that Specialized assigned to our patented 4-bar linkage design. In the early and mid-90's, Specialized manufactured a front shock named "Future Shock". "Future Shock Rear" seemed to be a logical extension of that name for rear suspension. Every FSR rear suspension utilizes a Specialized Patented design, which some refer to as the "Horst Link", and differs from other "4-bar link" rear suspension because of their efficient suspension action and pedaling, and independent braking forces that do not affect the suspension motion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted June 29, 2017 Share main reason why i chose not to study this sort of thing further. So thanks to the linkage it has two pivot points, but is still a single pivot - I understand! At least I learnt something todayhttp://fullsus.co.za/rear-suspension-designs-explained/ next dumb question. what does FSR mean, just industry hocus pocushttps://www.specialized.com/us/en/fsr-suspension can FSR be horst link/single pivot/whatever?In answer to your first point. A linkage is NOT a pivot. I realise this may be technical, but a pivot is any set of bearings or bushings that sits along the chain stay, or between theaon pivot and the rear axle. It's called a single pivot because there is only one point which the wheel rotates around. Forget about the seat stays for a while. Those just confuse matters and have no bearing on whether it's a single pivot or not. If you put another set of bearings in the chain stay, then there are suddenly 2 points which the rear wheel rotates around, and the axle path changes. It now rotates around 2 pivots instead of just one. Imagine a ruler, held by one hand at each end. Thumb and forefinger. Your one hand is the axle, the other is the main pivot. The ruler is unbroken. As the axle moves up, it pivots around your other hand. That's a single pivot design. Now imagine one of those folding rulers, with one pivot point in the middle. As you lift the axle, the wheel pivots around 2 areas. It moves differently to the single pivot design, based on where those pivots are along the length of the ruler (chainsaw) Now most designs are based on either a multi pivot design or a single pivot design. Santa Cruz, intense, ibis, giant, spaz (not this one) and many others share this, as there is an extra set of pivots between the main swingarm mounting point and the axle. ANY bike with a rigid, unbroken chainstay is a single pivot. That includes treks ABP design, more Wood's sukuma and most of their bikes as well as the old style orange and santa Cruz butcher. Why is trek a single pivot? Well, cos the extra set of bearings is not in-between the axle and the main pivot. It's ON the axle. Which means it has no bearing on how the chainstay moves. As for FSR/Horst... What do you think? There's a pivot on the chainstay between the axle and the main pivot... So.... TrekBikesSA 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrightJnr Posted June 29, 2017 Share You had me at "threaded BB". Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pure Savage, BaGearA, NelAndre and 3 others 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shebeen Posted June 29, 2017 Share In answer to your first point. A linkage is NOT a pivot. I realise this may be technical, but a pivot is any set of bearings or bushings that sits along the chain stay, or between theaon pivot and the rear axle. It's called a single pivot because there is only one point which the wheel rotates around. Forget about the seat stays for a while. Those just confuse matters and have no bearing on whether it's a single pivot or not. If you put another set of bearings in the chain stay, then there are suddenly 2 points which the rear wheel rotates around, and the axle path changes. It now rotates around 2 pivots instead of just one. Imagine a ruler, held by one hand at each end. Thumb and forefinger. Your one hand is the axle, the other is the main pivot. The ruler is unbroken. As the axle moves up, it pivots around your other hand. That's a single pivot design. Now imagine one of those folding rulers, with one pivot point in the middle. As you lift the axle, the wheel pivots around 2 areas. It moves differently to the single pivot design, based on where those pivots are along the length of the ruler (chainsaw) Now most designs are based on either a multi pivot design or a single pivot design. Santa Cruz, intense, ibis, giant, spaz (not this one) and many others share this, as there is an extra set of pivots between the main swingarm mounting point and the axle. ANY bike with a rigid, unbroken chainstay is a single pivot. That includes treks ABP design, more Wood's sukuma and most of their bikes as well as the old style orange and santa Cruz butcher. Why is trek a single pivot? Well, cos the extra set of bearings is not in-between the axle and the main pivot. It's ON the axle. Which means it has no bearing on how the chainstay moves. As for FSR/Horst... What do you think? There's a pivot on the chainstay between the axle and the main pivot... So....maybe I didn't pay attention in sterkteleer 114 enough, but all of these have multi pivots in them. it just depends on where your reference point is for what is pivoting around what. mtb jargon has clearly classified it in certain boxes, if something with 2 pivot points can still be called a single pivot design, then that's just that. it's like surfing where they describe 'offshore' wind with what is actually onshore (everyone else since the year dot has described wind from where it comes, not where it goes). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted June 29, 2017 Share maybe I didn't pay attention in sterkteleer 114 enough, but all of these have multi pivots in them. it just depends on where your reference point is for what is pivoting around what. mtb jargon has clearly classified it in certain boxes, if something with 2 pivot points can still be called a single pivot design, then that's just that. it's like surfing where they describe 'offshore' wind with what is actually onshore (everyone else since the year dot has described wind from where it comes, not where it goes).Yeah. But for the purposes of Mtb all that matters is the bar between axle and the chainstay. That is what determines the distinction. I should have added an extra caveat in my post above. "a linkage is not considered a pivot for the purposes of distinguishing between suspension types insofar as single vs multi pivots are concerned" Ie it's either single pivot or its not. Edited June 29, 2017 by Myles Mayhew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shebeen Posted June 30, 2017 Share how many pivot's here? http://www.pivotcycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/hero__0032_Pivot_Mach429C_green_angle.png and just waiting for the Spaz fanbois to moan about the thread hijack. NelAndre, Heel Drop, Captain Fastbastard Mayhem and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iwan Kemp Posted June 30, 2017 Share how many pivot's here? http://www.pivotcycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/hero__0032_Pivot_Mach429C_green_angle.png and just waiting for the Spaz fanbois to moan about the thread hijack. DW-link IH8MUD and DJuice 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipV Posted June 30, 2017 Share The problem is if they went as slack as the Spark it would've been the same as the camber. They had to stop at 69.5 as the current Camber S-Works is 68.5 degrees... The line up is getting to close to each other. My point was more in the line of the following:They should have relooked at the entire MTB offering. If they wanted to go 68.5 for the Epic they could have created a Epic Race bike with 100mm travel and an Epic Trail bike matching the current Camber Geo... Very much like what scott did with the Spark. It will be interesting to see what happens with the camber in a few months... If they relax that further it enters stumpy territory again...I think Scott made a mistake with the two different Spark personalities, it weakens the Spark Brand identity by trying to position it in two different market spheres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patchelicious Posted June 30, 2017 Share how many pivot's here? http://www.pivotcycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/hero__0032_Pivot_Mach429C_green_angle.png and just waiting for the Spaz fanbois to moan about the thread hijack.Too many, sies ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stefmeister Posted June 30, 2017 Share I think Scott made a mistake with the two different Spark personalities, it weakens the Spark Brand identity by trying to position it in two different market spheres.Agreed. It seems the spark vs spark rc confusion is all around. It would have made more sense for them the name the spark rc, scale rc instead, sticking with the xc thing, and keep the spark with all the variations with plus tires etc in the trail bike domain. Edited June 30, 2017 by stefmeister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Headshot Posted June 30, 2017 Share https://www.pinkbike.com/news/transitions-new-speed-balanced-geometry-2017.html Read this article for some info on Offset, trail and HTA. As far as the Pivot is concerned, its basically also a 4 bar FSR/Horst Link design. Its just that the lower link is super short instead of being the length of the chainstay like a Horst Link/FSR design. Tweaking the placement of the linkage pivots results in slightly different axle paths for the rear axle when the suspension compresses, among other things. Then again the whole bike is a Pivot so who knows :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spy Posted June 30, 2017 Share https://www.pinkbike.com/news/transitions-new-speed-balanced-geometry-2017.html Read this article for some info on Offset, trail and HTA. cool article. Would be very interesting to see how this plays out on 4" XCO setup. The increased Trail ( smaller offset) makes it more difficult to turn on slow switchbacks . But as mentioned this is a very tricky subject. As by now most manufactures has gone thru 2 generations of 29er dual suspension design .....by the 3rd generations (4-5 Years from Now) the bikes will be more refined . The S-Works Epic FSR has gone thru 4 (including the 2018 Model) if I am not mistaken... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spy Posted June 30, 2017 Share Looks like they will be raced this Saturday in Germany ... http://www.vojomag.com/news/exclusif-le-nouveau-specialized-epic-2018-en-mode-spyshot/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakkals. Posted June 30, 2017 Share Yeah. But for the purposes of Mtb all that matters is the bar between axle and the chainstay. That is what determines the distinction. I should have added an extra caveat in my post above. "a linkage is not considered a pivot for the purposes of distinguishing between suspension types insofar as single vs multi pivots are concerned" Ie it's either single pivot or its not.whats my epic 2015 then? single or not? Edited June 30, 2017 by antonj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now