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Trainingpeaks Form, Fatigue when using ATP


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Hi Guys

 

Need some guidance from anyone using the Trainingpeaks Premium account.

 

I am running with their annual training plan and using it as a guide to manage my weekly TSS.

 

My query is around the Form and Fatigue indicators, I had a heavy TSS score last week due to a stage event over the weekend, plunging my Fatigue score way up and consequently my Form score way down.

 

Today it's still sitting at Fatigue 66 and Form -33

 

The app naturally recommended some rest for the Monday, but it's still suggesting it for the past two days. 

 

I know its probably just an algorithm and I should listen to my body, but keen to hear your thoughts / experience on this. I did an interval session yesterday anyway which went okay - but I just want to make sure I guess.

 

 

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having read up on Joe Friel etc, my guess is you could follow one of the following:

 

- rest as suggested and see what happens

- continue as per what you think is normal and see what happens

- don't rest or do what's normal and see what happens.

 

regardless, you'll see what happens. I know that's wishy washy and really not what you're looking for, but I guess we're all different at different times, so at least you'll figure out what works for you. Or not... Friel DOES say that training normally while in 'overtrained' state can lead to 'bad things', but he doesn't go into detail what that might be. I found that confusing.

 

let us know what you did and how it went. anecdotal info is always helpful in some way.

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Sorry for the Hi-jack but how accurate/useful is the stravistix plugin on chrome? Im sure there will be more data/analytics available on strava premium, which I do not have.

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having read up on Joe Friel etc, my guess is you could follow one of the following:

 

- rest as suggested and see what happens

- continue as per what you think is normal and see what happens

- don't rest or do what's normal and see what happens.

 

regardless, you'll see what happens. I know that's wishy washy and really not what you're looking for, but I guess we're all different at different times, so at least you'll figure out what works for you. Or not... Friel DOES say that training normally while in 'overtrained' state can lead to 'bad things', but he doesn't go into detail what that might be. I found that confusing.

 

let us know what you did and how it went. anecdotal info is always helpful in some way.

mmm, today's session is active recovery anyway, going to give it a miss and do another interval session tomorrow evening,
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go to Beredatraining.com and you can plan your own ramp rates with A and B races thrown in.

 

Recalcs your TSB and Form numbers and gives you a good indication of CTL if you hit the IF and TSS numbers it presribes.

 

Could be a bit nerdy but I dig it.

 

Interesting read on Lionel Sanders last Kona block which they transcribed and gives some insight into the system

 

https://www.beredatraining.com/2017/11/19/lionel-sanders-kona-block/

Edited by bradwentzel
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Sorry for the Hi-jack but how accurate/useful is the stravistix plugin on chrome? Im sure there will be more data/analytics available on strava premium, which I do not have.

Not sure if the one is based on the other but I have Strava premium and the plug in gives a crap load of analytics. Maybe someone with a normal account could advise.

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go to Beredatraining.com and you can plan your own ramp rates with A and B races thrown in.

 

Recalcs your TSB and Form numbers and gives you a good indication of CTL if you hit the IF and TSS numbers it presribes.

 

Could be a bit nerdy but I dig it.

 

Interesting read on Lionel Sanders last Kona block which they transcribed and gives some insight into the system

 

https://www.beredatraining.com/2017/11/19/lionel-sanders-kona-block/

You can do this in training peaks as well 

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Sorry for the Hi-jack but how accurate/useful is the stravistix plugin on chrome? Im sure there will be more data/analytics available on strava premium, which I do not have.

 

Quite accurate IF used with a power meter. My friend uses it for his training with power and I use it for heart rate.

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My 2c having used TP premium for some time:

 

After your "A" event you will no doubt have had high TSS and fatigue scores for a multiday/stage event. Your CTL will be high too. You should spend the week thereafter in full recovery. This may mean time OFF the bike. Do core exercises and stretch.

Dont worry that your CTL starts to drop a little. This is normal. It should cycle up and down getting to and after each "A" event. Trying to keep it rising all the time, or flat will burn you out.

Rest is one of your best training weapons, its no good you push relentlessly on - it will just make you sick.

REST! Your fatigue will drop and your form will rise, and you will be ready to hit your next block of training with vigour.

 

If you are using the ATP then you will have already set your next "A" event, and possibly "B" events which do also affect your goal CTL for the "A" event along the way.

You need to know what CTL works best for you at a race event (ie at what CTL are you most competitive), as this is a target you will set.

The ATP allows you periodization in that you can set 3 weeks on 1 week off, or 4 weeks on 1 week off. Within this you should be organizing your workouts to give you the required TSS scores for the week that build your CTL up towards your "A" event, as well as the correct type of training needed (base, Build, Peak etc) building up to the "A" event

 

Workouts can be base strength, tempo, Threshold, Vo2max, so it makes no sense doing intervals that dont match your ATP requirements. Each type of workout builds off the last so that when you hit the peak period the week before your "A" event you are honing yourself, getting leg speed, and not getting tired doing heavy Threshold sessions or strength work. This is the time you want your fatigue to drop and form to rise so that you are in perfect condition come raceday.

Make sure your rest week periods are just that, and keep your TSS scores to the required amount.

 

 

Strava Premium isnt that useful.

Edited by Li Mu Bai
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^^^^^ What Li Mu Bai said, could not say it better myself.  Recovery weeks and especially rest weeks after your A event or a big event like a stage race are more important that training.

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My 2c having used TP premium for some time:

 

After your "A" event you will no doubt have had high TSS and fatigue scores for a multiday/stage event. Your CTL will be high too. You should spend the week thereafter in full recovery. This may mean time OFF the bike. Do core exercises and stretch.

Dont worry that your CTL starts to drop a little. This is normal. It should cycle up and down getting to and after each "A" event. Trying to keep it rising all the time, or flat will burn you out.

Rest is one of your best training weapons, its no good you push relentlessly on - it will just make you sick.

REST! Your fatigue will drop and your form will rise, and you will be ready to hit your next block of training with vigour.

 

If you are using the ATP then you will have already set your next "A" event, and possibly "B" events which do also affect your goal CTL for the "A" event along the way.

You need to know what CTL works best for you at a race event (ie at what CTL are you most competitive), as this is a target you will set.

The ATP allows you periodization in that you can set 3 weeks on 1 week off, or 4 weeks on 1 week off. Within this you should be organizing your workouts to give you the required TSS scores for the week that build your CTL up towards your "A" event, as well as the correct type of training needed (base, Build, Peak etc) building up to the "A" event

 

Workouts can be base strength, tempo, Threshold, Vo2max, so it makes no sense doing intervals that dont match your ATP requirements. Each type of workout builds off the last so that when you hit the peak period the week before your "A" event you are honing yourself, getting leg speed, and not getting tired doing heavy Threshold sessions or strength work. This is the time you want your fatigue to drop and form to rise so that you are in perfect condition come raceday.

Make sure your rest week periods are just that, and keep your TSS scores to the required amount.

 

 

Strava Premium isnt that useful.

 

 

Awesome detail, thanks. Would you say TP is still as useful if you don't have a power meter?

 

If one is following a TP program does it then become pretty much the same as stravistix for following Form, Fitness and fatigue?

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OP,

 

Listen to what it says. As it's been summarized above, you need a lot of rest after a big event.

 

I was training hard for the Panorama Tour which was 4 days of racing. I have only ridden twice in the following week, both of which were zone 2 / coffee rides.

 

You need to recover. Besides what the numbers say, what does your body say? Are you still feeling tired and fatigued, or are you feeling great and ready to go? Something I have learnt over the years is to listen to my body...

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Awesome detail, thanks. Would you say TP is still as useful if you don't have a power meter?

 

If one is following a TP program does it then become pretty much the same as stravistix for following Form, Fitness and fatigue?

Heart rate data really only plays a role after the fact, ie you have to put in an effort and then your body responds and your eventually your HR goes up. I found when doing hill intervals for example getting to the required goal target HR for the particular exercise frustrating as it took a long time for my HR to reach its target, ie 3/4 way up the hill (my HR is extremely low naturally) thus for the first half of the hill I have no idea if I am at the right intensity to reap maximum benefit of the particular interval.

Also if I was feeling low or didnt really get enough sleep the night before, my HR reflects this and i just cant hit the required target numbers and the training session isnt what it should be.

 

With a power meter there is NO HIDING!

The number reflects your immediate effort and it is what it is. You either reach your target for the interval almost immediately and hold it there, and thus get the benefit of the session.

This is much better than slowly building up to reach a target HR at the end of the minute of each interval for eg.

Thus a power meter is a more accurate training tool imo.

 

Strava modelled itself after TP, changing TSS to suffer score etc. Most of the science was done by TP.

I havent used stravistix, and Strava premium was really more about looking at your training results after the fact than building a whole training program as you can through the ATP

My comparisson between the two is that Strava just isnt nearly as accurate as TP, even comparing the exact same data.

Also, If you compare suffer score between different people, the annomalies in scores for people of similar fitness, body composition, size , age, HR and same power output for the EXACT SAME RIDE is quite bizarre. Their math just doesnt make sense.

Edited by Li Mu Bai
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OP,

 

Listen to what it says. As it's been summarized above, you need a lot of rest after a big event.

 

I was training hard for the Panorama Tour which was 4 days of racing. I have only ridden twice in the following week, both of which were zone 2 / coffee rides.

 

You need to recover. Besides what the numbers say, what does your body say? Are you still feeling tired and fatigued, or are you feeling great and ready to go? Something I have learnt over the years is to listen to my body...

Sometimes your mind overrules what your "body says" - especially if you are number crunching and dont want to "lose" all that fitness score your 4 day race effort has given you. Sure it feels lousy losing all that "fitness" you have earned.

You con yourself that you are feeling fine, but as the FATIGUE isnt going down, properly, your future training suffers, and you can go into a state of being overtrained and/or then get a cold, flu, or burnout.

 

Its just numbers. When you rest sufficiently, your fitness and fatigue goes down, but more importantly your form improves, meaning that you do your subsequent training intervals better from a more refreshed base and can push yourself harder.

Edited by Li Mu Bai
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