Is watt/power based training better than distance based training?

[DieselnDust]

I asked Jeroen Swart this during the "Power training" articles a few years back when training remains HR based for Pro's. Unfortunately I didn't get the answer I was looking for.

 

I am sure at a certain point elite and pro cyclist reach their maximum fitness according to their heart rates and only their rest and general health influence their HR based metrics.

 

Except the obvious 'skills and handling factor', how will someone differentiate their HR based training from Nino Schurter if they both perform a 20 min session @ 90% Max HR? I feel power becomes the metric to use. 

 

So realistically, no matter how much skills, bike-handling and even luck plays part, your 20 min and 3 min FTP will define your position in a race.

The sports science institute will disagree with you as their data does not support your feelings

[Knersboy]

I know a lot is personal preference, Rouvy vs. Zwift etc. one good thing about Zwift for your scenario are the races, there are actually Crit races. I did one about a month ago, they are moebi. Once I was finished bleeding out of my ears and crying I did feel quite satisfied with myself.

[Jbr]

Use intervals.icu - the estimate FTP function gives a very similar number to actual (or so I have found), so you never need to do an FTP test! 

 

Based on the training question from the OP, it's definitely worth training according to power and not distance. Make your hard sessions, very hard, and your easy sessions, very easy. 

Awesome, my FTP suddenly went from 291 (from my garmin device) to 299 on intervals.icu, when Zwift gave me 294, Xert 293... all that from an actual FTP test (except from intervals.icu that's based on my recent activities I guess, including the said FTP test)

 

Actually Xert gave me an FTP on the activity from the test, but since it's went down to 291... I wonder how these sites can estimate your FTP from activities where you are not pushing hard to get the highest possible number for a longer period of time... All in all the 8 watts difference between the lowest estimate and the highest estimate feel like a mountain to gain though...

I've been postponing that 300w FTP goal for a while now        , at least I reached the 4w/kg one this month "thanks to" an injury that forced me to only do power training on the indoor trainer

Edited March 2, 2020 by Jbr

[JanJan]

The sports science institute will disagree with you as their data does not support your feelings

On which aspect will they disagree?

[DieselnDust]

Awesome, my FTP suddenly went from 291 (from my garmin device) to 299 on intervals.icu, when Zwift gave me 294, Xert 293... all that from an actual FTP test (except from intervals.icu that's based on my recent activities I guess, including the said FTP test)

 

Actually Xert gave me an FTP on the activity from the test, but since it's went down to 291... I wonder how these sites can estimate your FTP from activities where you are not pushing hard to get the highest possible number for a longer period of time... All in all the 8 watts difference between the lowest estimate and the highest estimate feel like a mountain to gain though...

I've been postponing that 300w FTP goal for a while now        , at least I reached the 4w/kg one this month "thanks to" an injury that forced me to only do power training on the indoor trainer

Your FTP will vary from day to day.

THRESHOLD HR may vary by 1 beat but FTP can vary by as much as 20W depending on your fatigue, levels of hydration and amount of combinant EPO left over in your system.

 

 

Oh <{ wrong forum

[DieselnDust]

On which aspect will they disagree?

 

 

all of it. everyone has a peak ability. It matters not whether you get there via HR based training or power based. Its not like HR has an upper limit and Power doesn't. Either is just a measure of how the engine is performing and not a designed limit. upper limit is determined by genetics, nutrition, training quality that allows the appropriate physical adaptation for an individual. 

Power based vs HR based doesn't determine any of those

[JanJan]

all of it. everyone has a peak ability. It matters not whether you get there via HR based training or power based. Its not like HR has an upper limit and Power doesn't. Either is just a measure of how the engine is performing and not a designed limit. upper limit is determined by genetics, nutrition, training quality that allows the appropriate physical adaptation for an individual. 

Power based vs HR based doesn't determine any of those

 

Thanks. I understand everyone has a peak ability, I just felt that power is a better metric to use to compare between peers to gauge and adapt training. My initial question to Jeroen was regarding Philip Buy's 'readiness and fitness' before some big race I can't remember.

 

Leading up to a big event, a pro should be able to compare their power metrics to others to determine their expectations or a way to adapt their training.

 

Anyway, thanks for the explanation.

[Duane_Bosch]

I know a lot is personal preference, Rouvy vs. Zwift etc. one good thing about Zwift for your scenario are the races, there are actually Crit races. I did one about a month ago, they are moebi. Once I was finished bleeding out of my ears and crying I did feel quite satisfied with myself.

I think this is the best advice on here.

 

Those crit races on zwift seen quite legit. Maybe run a program and then smash one of those online crit races once a week?

[Jewbacca]

Thanks. I understand everyone has a peak ability, I just felt that power is a better metric to use to compare between peers to gauge and adapt training. My initial question to Jeroen was regarding Philip Buy's 'readiness and fitness' before some big race I can't remember.

 

Leading up to a big event, a pro should be able to compare their power metrics to others to determine their expectations or a way to adapt their training.

 

Anyway, thanks for the explanation.

I think there are a few factors at play.

 

Comparing power metrics is great, but I think the guys are saying that HR training has been touted recently by Jeroen to be a better training method, while power is a good measure for a race plan.

 

BUT, I agree with Duane.... For most of us regular humans not pushing 7w/kg and more than 10% body fat, either of the 2 plans are fantastic as they force you to be consistent and they guide you towards achievable goalposts and quantifiable gains.

 

Often what the pro's do doesn't transfer at all well to what the regular folk should do to see the right type of improvements.

[Duane_Bosch]

 

 

BUT, I agree with Duane....

I was wrong. After last night my FTP is up 3 entire watts. POWERR!!!

[DieselnDust]

Thanks. I understand everyone has a peak ability, I just felt that power is a better metric to use to compare between peers to gauge and adapt training. My initial question to Jeroen was regarding Philip Buy's 'readiness and fitness' before some big race I can't remember.

 

Leading up to a big event, a pro should be able to compare their power metrics to others to determine their expectations or a way to adapt their training.

 

Anyway, thanks for the explanation.

 

 

Its a very complex issue and Dr. Posthumus did discuss this after the workshop as I asked him the question (waned to see if I could check my fitness against my pals going into CTCT.....LOL:))

The gist or what he described is below

 

 

Yes from this perspective of comparing different riders power can be a more transparent measure but as I mentioned in your peak FTP can vary from day to day and this will affect your Watts/Kg or power to weight.So when are you taking a time stamp to do the comparison?

This is why coaches rather use  a combination of factors like Training stress balance ratio (ATL/CTL) in combination with Threshold HR and PtW. And even then all they are doing is comparing when one rider is coming into his/or her form and where their peer is in relation.

Then the other aspect to consider is what does form mean? Is a Puncheurs form the same as for an allrounder or a climber because they will end up having different strengths at different times in a race.

Is any one of those riders on a good day or a bad day?

 

The only truth is out on the road in the race.

 

Where the power meter is really beneficial is in analysing post race data to help unpack your weaknesses. This is another thing that stood out for me since in a race your HR may stay high with less variability than power. But HR drop off will behave similarly to power drop off so the PM may provide more granularity to your data quest but a trained coach will arrive at the same conclusions whether power or HR is used.

 

 

 

Its a very complex issue and Dr. Posthumus did discuss this after the workshop as I asked him the question (waned to see if I could check my fitness against my pals going into CTCT.....LOL:))

The gist or what he described is below

[PlemPlem]

I am signed up for a criterium series, starting in May this year... now, its absolutely freezing here in the UK, and WAY too much rain. I have my indoor trainer working over time, now my question is:

 

Is watt based training better than distance training? Especially in terms of Cat 3 criterium racing?

 

Thanks all.

Yes, Yes and again Yes!

In the old days HR training was the norm; nowadays PM training is the preferred method to improve in a scientific measurable manner.

Reason - HR fluctuates daily according to a number of different criteria such as your overall wellness, external factors like stress (work and pvt life), sleep patterns and so forth.

However PM Watt training values remain the  same!

So if you want to train according to a specific plan, establish what your Functional Threshold Power (FTP) is and have your power zones and plan (towards your end goal) set up for those, combined with specific small periodic increments as you improve.

Your HR will just follow whatever your training will be and over time you will see gradual and regular improvement; i.e. increase in achievable FTP and overall lower HR in those PM zones. 

My FTP improved over five years from 225 (start) to 319 (current).

[DieselnDust]

Yes, Yes and again Yes!

In the old days HR training was the norm; nowadays PM training is the preferred method to improve in a scientific measurable manner.

Reason - HR fluctuates daily according to a number of different criteria such as your overall wellness, external factors like stress (work and pvt life), sleep patterns and so forth.

However PM Watt training values remain the  same!

So if you want to train according to a specific plan, establish what your Functional Threshold Power (FTP) is and have your power zones and plan (towards your end goal) set up for those, combined with specific small periodic increments as you improve.

Your HR will just follow whatever your training will be and over time you will see gradual and regular improvement; i.e. increase in achievable FTP and overall lower HR in those PM zones. 

My FTP improved over five years from 225 (start) to 319 (current).

 

 

I think you have bought into the power training sales pitch like many of us. Training according to HR is pretty much the same.

On an off day your power values will not allow you to train in the correct zones, just like HR.

your ability to maintain power is impacted by the same influences as your HR.

there isn't a silver bullet.

Where HR is more restrictive is when you are time constrained and you cannot allow for 20min of recovery between reps as you would need so power allows you to drop the load and recover somewhat. Here HR also has an edge since you are better able to gauge when you are properly recovered from an effort before the next one and we know that its during recovery that the mitochondrial adaptation takes place

[RocknRolla]

This is starting to smell a bit like a 26 vs 29 debate....

 

Wonder who will challenge who for a head to head.. to see which one is better...HR or Wattzzzzzzzzz.

[Duane_Bosch]

This is starting to smell a bit like a 26 vs 29 debate....

 

Try telling someone that training to HR and power are the same thing.

Edited March 3, 2020 by Duane_Bosch

[RocknRolla]

Try telling someone that training to HR and power are the same thing.

 

 

Yes, but which one will be faster around my backyard trails...