TimW

Exactly - well said!! In the golf world one cannot play competitions without a handicap. Handicaps are only issued to registered members of clubs. Golfers who did not support clubs did not like this and the Virtual Clubs were born. These Virtual Clubs piggy back on established clubs whose members pay subs to keep their golf courses in good nick. The SA Golf Union' date=' in their greed, sanctioned these VC's and they blossomed because golfers were now paying a pittance to get an official handicap and could not give a damn about who would keep the clubs going. Today these clubs are floundering and I wonder what will happen to these VC's when there are no more courses to play?[/quote'] I agree with you about golf, but do not think golf and MTB clubs can be compared. Golf needs a huge infrastructure to survive (golf clubs are incredibly expensive to run) while MTB races can be held with much less cost for basic course infrastructure. The only reason, I can see, for clubs to exist in MTB is to support official structures. In other words to generate money for CSA to operate ... which, I hasten to add, I believe is crucial in the big pictures as much as some of us may be critical of some of their decisions.

Sorry been working and there have been a few posts which I should reply to ... I will start here and go through point by point and try and reply to all. "The more pertient debate is whether Roag will stifle competition." I personally hope we do not, as competition breeds quality ... all of us in ROAG are competitive race organisers and we compete with each other to produce the best races. A poor race should die, or be organised by somebody better (just my viewpoint). organisers have to use the Mr Price timing system, or other profit driven services Not true ... one my races, Hill 2 Hill, cannot use Mr Price for timing as it clashes with our sponsor Jeep Apparell. Races have a "shopping" list of services we offer. They can use the timing only, or the entry process only, or etc etc. It is not prescriptive. We are not aiming to control cycling ... only try to contribute to better organised events. Hill 2 Hill will probably be using Elite Timing for Hill 2 Hill, but will use pretty much all the other ROAG services to improve our race. The decision to use MR Price as the "preferred (note, not exclusive) supplier" did not suit us, but suited ROAG (and thus MTB) as a whole, which is why Hill 2 Hill Events voted to go with Mr Price timing. can races get on the Roag seeding system if they don't pay Roag associates ? As things stand we are basing our seeding system only on races which use our services. It is an added benefit to "our" races and I am sure you can see the reasoning behind this. If not, how do you think this will affect smaller races ? Tough question and to be honest not too sure. But, our schedule of costs is based largely on numbers of riders (some things are fixed costs where it is a fixed cost to us, like providing a seeding to races), so I think even the smaller races can benefit. Remember, we don't organise their races, we simply supply systems to help organise races more effeciently. For smaller races a seeding system is not that important. If you only have 300 riders you can set them off in one batch. (Are there any guarantees that Roag will place the interest of mtb-ers ahead of financial gain ?) Anybody want to see our bank statements -- so far ROAG has done nothing but cost money, as well as a lot of time and effort? Seriously, only time will prove if we genuinely have the interests of MTB at heart, but from what I have seen at meetings, I believe everybody involved is doing this for the right reasons.

Are you ser ii uss ? I havent seen a single negative thing about ROAG. Do you have inside info you want to share with us ? I am Chairman of the 2nd biggest cycling club in KZN and clubs are concerned at the erosion of membership by this body and it will be high on the agenda of the next Cycling KZN committee meeting. Clubs are the lifeblood of the sport and just because of the current licensing fiasco we should not allow rogue bodies to undermine us! Hi "Wobbles" We are not trying to undermine clubs in any way. ROAG is there primarily as a service to riders and race organisers and thus to the lifeblood of the sport. I understand your concern regarding the "erosion of membership" and it is a valid concern for clubs, but I believe those clubs which offer services to their members will retain their memberships. We make no bones about the fact we are simply offering Roag CLUB members (as opposed to people who register with Roag but do not join the club) nothing other than a facility to register with CSA. We will not be organising club rides, we will not be organising special offers and discounts for club members, we will not be organising prizegivings, or cocktail parties or meet-your-club-buddy evenings. We only went with a "virtual" club option at the request of CSA and KZNMTB. I think what you also must remember is that up to 80% or entrants in MTB races last year were not members of clubs and thus were not registered with CSA. In other words, 80% of MTB riders have no desire to be members of a club structure and we are allowing those people to join CSA and be licenced. Hope that alleviates some of your (and other people's) concerns.TimW2009-04-23 01:02:40

I am involved in ROAG. Firstly: We are not attacking any clubs. There is no reason riders cannot join any club they want and register with ROAG ... CLUB ROAG is simply an option for people who register with ROAG ... it is not compulsory!!! We provided the club option for one reason only, to get people to join CSA. We wanted to work with CSA on this because CSA said they wanted people to join clubs (this was at a meeting which we called to let them and KZNMTB know what we were doing before we launched). Last year our races had about 70% of the people competing not being members of clubs. Personally I believe strongly in the club structure even though I am not a "club person". If clubs want to keep members they must offer something other than simply taking your money. Some clubs do offer something to members (club rides, functions, prizegivings etc etc) and they deserve their club fees. Others take the money and give nothing back and I think those are the clubs that ROAG may affect -- and no apologies for that. Secondly: The system is designed to make life easier for race organisers (a secure, accurate database that all races who chose to use our system can benefit from) which we believe will make for better organised races (with fewer problems and delays at prizegivings (no more grey haired old men winning the girls under 12 prize because of a mistake in birthdate on the 30th entry form the old man has filled in this year). Thirdly: Riders should benefit hugely because you only have to remember their ROAG number and name and they can enter races quickly and efficiently. No (or certainly shorter) queues and no more entry forms. Fourthly: Finances ... there is a lot of supspicion because we don't charge riders. Initially three races (HIll 2 Hill, Eston and Karkloof) plus a couple of other parties (Concept Events and IT company Quartex) funded the project in terms of time and money, but going forward we hope to cover our costs from races paying for our services, but aim to keep the costs to the races to the same they would be paying for anyway (ie, instead of every race paying for number boards and paying 10 different people to capture manual entry forms our system provides a number board and has one person inputting manual entries using a ROAG number it is much quicker for that person as well. Fifthly: Any race (and not just MTB --- roadies are welcome as well as canoe races, or road running, triathlon, X-Terra type as well) in Gauteng or any other priovince is welcome to contact us and we will see what we can do to help you put on a better event. Everybody involved, bar our secretary, is a mountain biker who has the sport at heart and wants to improve things. I put my name here because I have nothing to hide!! Tim Whitfield TimW2009-04-23 00:39:00

To put it bluntly, is it worth risking death for ... True story: My best friend, an elite canoeist bordering on Springbok level at the time, trained with flu. The virus damaged his heart muscles and he spent two years "recovering". He was pronounced fit by a team of respected cadiologists, started training again and reached top level again (missed out on Springbok team by one place in controversial selection) and six months later collapsed while training and died -- aged 26 years!!! So, if you still believe a couple of training sessions are too important to miss, think of the alternatives. Obviously I feel strongly about it. The wisdom (and I follow this) seems to be, if you have a cold or flu below the head then don't train. I may be wrong but the reason Amy Jane Mundy (two-time SA wiomen;s cross country champion) is only now slowly getting back into riding is a result of competing while suffering from a flu-like virus which affected her heart. Flu is probably safe 80% of the time, but if it is affecteing your heart, you risk death.

What did everybody think of the Sani seeding. After the initial hiccups (and there were a few people in wrong batches) I thought it worked a dream. What did everybody else think? I think seeding is the way to go ... I certainly was never held up in the singletrack at Sani!

As things stand at the moment, for mountain biking events probably not. It is soooo difficult to equate road performance with real cycl ... I mean mountain biking. The skills for road (being able to follow a white line) and mountain biking (really being able to ride a bicycle) are so different. Seriously (and before all the roadies attack me) there is a meeting tomorrow and that issue is on the agenda. In time we are hoping to be able to include a road seeding into the system as well as involving other sports (road running, canoeing, multisports etc etc). If the system works as we envisage then there is no reason why it cannot become workable for a host of other sports.

Hi all ... I am one of the people involved. Firstly, no we are not rogues (well, I believe we are not), but more importantly ... seeding is done on recent (currently the past year) mountain biking results and in time as we build our data base of race results will become more accurate and more representative. Everybody involved is a mountain biker with a passion for the sport. Most of us are race organisers (hence R(ace) O(rganisers) A(dmin) G(roup)) representing Eston, Karkloof, Hill 2 Hill and Berg and Bush as well as about 10 other races in KZN. We got together originally with a plan to make our lives easier by sharing information and creating an accurate data base of riders to do away with the need for riders to repeatedly fill in entry details (how many times have you filled in your Medical Aid and number, and contact details, and emergency contact details etc etc etc). Once we have it and it is verified the data is secure and, most importantly, accurate, so a balding 60-year-old man is not going to win the prize for the sub-junior girls division because he filled in the incorrect bate of birth and sex (it has happened, repeatedly). If the race you enter is linked to ROAG you simply enter your number and all your details are available to that race organiser. Nobody else has access to your details, other than race organisers of event you have entered. Any other questions, I will try and monitor the forum and answer. The club is simply a way of allowing those riders who do not believe in joining a club to get a CSA licence. Everything to do with ROAG (registering and joining the club) is free, however you still have to pay any applicable CSA fees if you want to join them.