KZN DH event ... Rico's/Comleys DH track ... 10th June - Trail-Bike FRIENDLY Track

[geecee]

We were also discussing this timing thing. i dunno how we can get timed to 0.01 of a second when the timing is done as it is. we had a good chuckle.

 

Not the easiest thing to accomplish tho. especially if you want times on the fly. Unless there is a way to implement the standard timing chip option that is used in running and other cycling events?

 

maybe the running chips are better as you can attach it to your shoe rather than the bike which would take quite a beating, not sure how close you need to be to the timing mats.

 

other ways we were thinking would be too costly and too complicated for a quick setup.

 

alternatively you would need to log start and finish times to a database (laptop top and bottom), maybe on 2 time-synced computers and then have a small algorithm to match the times and work out a more accurate figure at the end of the day (or via 3g dongle if available).

 

you could of course still use the current timing method for on the fly stuff so people can still check straight after their runs. and then just have to wait a bit for the 'official' results at the end of the day.

[Grebel]

We had our chat this weekend and the possibilities are almost endless.

 

The biggest deciding factor regrading how this timing thing will work boils down to what the budget is....

 

There are two main options available. One being wired and the other being wireless. The obvious problem with the wired options is having a few kilometres of cabling that you would need to run from the start to the finish. The timing mechanism for both would be very similar if not the same. If you use the same clamp system that I have seen used before, that release could be linked to a limit/proximity switch that would start the timer and a simple optical beam at the finish could be used to stop the timer. The top and bottom would need to be connected somehow. That is where the cable/wireless comes in. Wireless would obviously be better as the setup would be quick. I am sure that a VPN could be setup between two laptops/net books using a 3G card. The bottom computer could be connected to a screen that would show live timing.

 

A budget setup would be two notebooks with a wireless connection along with the start stop timing equipment.

 

A mid level setup slightly would be a bit more complicated having the above setup but it would include split times and a speed trap somewhere on course.

 

The executive package would have the above and it would incorporate RF ID chips. That would be expensive though.

 

My friend is going to find out if we can get a sponsor on-board that could assist with supplying the equipment as well as writing the software for us. Somebody might need to supply the laptops though.....

 

I will let you know as soon as we get feedback!

[geecee]

Yeah sounds very much like the ideas i had.

Connection wise i would say 3G will be the best, although also depends on coverage. Durban is pretty good with coverage but was up in jhb recently and some areas have terrible signal.

 

wires really wouldn't be an option, what a nightmare. and any other wireless option would for the most part require some sort of line of sight.

 

I would use a proper proximity switch up top and a light sensor at the bottom (possibly 2 at the bottom to ensure you dont get a false reading), industrial, but also these aren't extremely expensive these days.

 

may just need some sort of digital input card/usb or something that the proximity is wired to for the signal in, probably find you could run everything through excel or access. at the very worst some browser based page with a bit of code running from mysql database or even a flat file.

[nigelhicks]

**** you okes are talking way over my head here ... Grebel ... if your mate could organise something like that that would be insane.

 

I also agree that cabling is out - so it would have to be wireless - but then also have the normal stopwatch timer still as a back up - but this all sounds very exciting ... Keen to see if we can pull this off.

[geecee]

yeah If grebel can get some support from his friend and we can start fiddling with something I'm quite sure we can find a workable solution. I am involved with industrial automation and networking, so i can help to a certain degree depending on how it works out. even if its just tech support when **** hits the fan haha.

[Grebel]

As far as input goes I think it would be programmed through a small PLC using a comms port as the connection (USB might work). The top computer would send the start signal via 3G or whatever works. The bottom computer would receive it and use the PLC to process along with the finish signal. The RF ID tag would be cool because you could then link times to rider IDs and have live timing showing up with rider name, number and time. I am not clued up in the programming side of things. The mechanical field is my game so the logic and the operating system would have to be left up to the specialists. I do know that RF ID tags are cheap. The expensive parts are the mats and the electronics to read the chip.

 

Lets see what happens and what the next step is.

[Grebel]

yeah If grebel can get some support from his friend and we can start fiddling with something I'm quite sure we can find a workable solution. I am involved with industrial automation and networking, so i can help to a certain degree depending on how it works out. even if its just tech support when **** hits the fan haha.

 

Haha! Like I said, I can design the brackets, boxes etc, but the programming side of things, I leave up to the experts! I understand the logic just don't get involved in writing the software.

[Grebel]

**** you okes are talking way over my head here ... Grebel ... if your mate could organise something like that that would be insane.

 

I also agree that cabling is out - so it would have to be wireless - but then also have the normal stopwatch timer still as a back up - but this all sounds very exciting ... Keen to see if we can pull this off.

 

I would still keep the stopwatches handy.....

[nigelhicks]

cant we .... just have a beam at the bottom of the track with nothing at the start? As your start time is fixed ... this could just be loaded onto an excel sheet on the computer at the bottom and then as the rider breaks the beam at the end of his run the spreadsheet registers the time of day that the beam was broken and then calculates the riders time?

 

If you used chips these might be able to be processed similar to what elite timing do with the mats and can give the riders name and number etc??

[geecee]

We could interface direct with the pc im sure, i mean all the PLC is, is a processing unit, all of which could be done on PC with some knowledge.

You could always use a PLC, but its added cost. Altho you can get the econo models nowadays for 1k some change.

 

im on the programming/electronics side

[geecee]

cant we .... just have a beam at the bottom of the track with nothing at the start? As your start time is fixed ... this could just be loaded onto an excel sheet on the computer at the bottom and then as the rider breaks the beam at the end of his run the spreadsheet registers the time of day that the beam was broken and then calculates the riders time?

 

If you used chips these might be able to be processed similar to what elite timing do with the mats and can give the riders name and number etc??

 

this still leaves a lot of human error in timing. the start is still controlled by someone saying go and the person releasing the clamp. no point in having 100ths of a second at the bottom with a second or 2 accuracy at the top

[nigelhicks]

this still leaves a lot of human error in timing. the start is still controlled by someone saying go and the person releasing the clamp. no point in having 100ths of a second at the bottom with a second or 2 accuracy at the top

 

Hmmm i see what you mean - so you would have a beam at the top and a beam at the bottom (or a start wand like they have at the world cups) that registers the riders start. this is then logged onto the PC at the top and relayed down to the finish PC ... when the rider passes through the beam at the finish the time is recorded and computated.

 

BUT what happens in the event that someone crashes etc and is overtaken??? We would need something to use as a "descriptive" thing to register each specific rider and not just the time

[geecee]

yeah it can get complicated.

thats where rfid is perfect but costly.

 

it would be easy if it was one rider on the course at a time, then it needs a start and a finish before the next start.

 

but in saying that there is still a minute between runs. so as long as the timing is logged, start and finish, the 'timers' at the bottom can still assign a race number to it and hit compute. and if someone falls a tag can be assigned for a DNF or values switched in the case of a crash and overtake.

[nigelhicks]

ya i suppose you have a "time keeper" sitting at the computer and just registering the riders number on the spreadsheet as they cross the line

[Grebel]

I step out for a few minutes and you okes cover every scenario!! The executive system should cover all eventualities. Start and stop, split times as well as registering the rider id as they set off and when they cross the line it registrers a time as well as correlate the names etc. If somebody falls or the race uis temporarily stopped, there is no mix up as you require two inputs (Wand and RF) to start the timing as well as two inputs (Beam and RF) to stop the timer.

 

Technically it is the wand and the beam that start and stop with the RF used to identify the participant.

 

This cost big money though.

 

The simpler wand / beam combo would be cheaper.

 

The problem like geecee pointed out is that you could be a half a second off with releasing the clamp and a quarter of a second off in stopping the time at the finish. This equates to almost a second. When the top two are separated by less than half a second, are they really.....?

[Grebel]

ya i suppose you have a "time keeper" sitting at the computer and just registering the riders number on the spreadsheet as they cross the line

 

I would say that you need a person to monitor would be a better scenario. Ideally you want the system to run itself. (bit like the transponder system in MX) Link that to a 42" screen at the finish showing you live timing and you got yourself a pimping setup! KZN would be the envy of ALL the other provinces!! All we need now is a sponsor.....