Did Raleigh copy the Momsen Vipa?

[Fisan]

Eish. another who-copied-who thread? While you're at it, why don't you start a 26 vs 27.5 vs 29 vs 26+ vs 27.5+ thread as well!?

[Christie]

No...it was designed by Victor Momsen and Patrick Morewood from the ground up. The name VIPA comes from VIctor and PAtrick. Like most brands, a Chinese company is contracted to make them.

Thats how I understood it. Shape done here, layup probably by the Chinese (not many in SA know how). The frame looks a lot like the Vipa imo, if you can look past the colour difference.

Here is a speculative scenario:

Chinese company also builds Raleighs. Raleigh asks them for a dual 29 design. They have the design for the Vipa, so they make some cosmetic changes (top tube, set tube brace, rear dropout lugs) and sell the "new" Raleigh design.

[Christie]

Eish. another who-copied-who thread? While you're at it, why don't you start a 26 vs 27.5 vs 29 vs 26+ vs 27.5+ thread as well!?

Or just dont read it if you are not interested? Problem solved.

[MintSauce]

Thats how I understood it. Shape done here, layup probably by the Chinese (not many in SA know how). The frame looks a lot like the Vipa imo, if you can look past the colour difference.

Here is a speculative scenario:

Chinese company also builds Raleighs. Raleigh asks them for a dual 29 design. They have the design for the Vipa, so they make some cosmetic changes (top tube, set tube brace, rear dropout lugs) and sell the "new" Raleigh design.

 

You don't just "make some cosmetic changes" to a carbon design. Even the slightest mm change in one area, will require and entirely new mould. Last time I spoke to a local SA bike 'maker' they were paying in the region of ZAR 500k per mould.

So, you'd be daft to pay 500k and not make a frame your own. Might as well just get an off-the-shelf design then if you want to copy. That's probably what Raleigh did here.

 

The fact is, this Raleigh looks similar to the Momsen and they both look similar to a host of designs that have been around for ages. Nothing new here. The better performing designs are the ones where great attention was paid to the details ie exact position of pivots, carbon layup, geometry and so on.

[Christie]

You don't just "make some cosmetic changes" to a carbon design. Even the slightest mm change in one area, will require and entirely new mould. Last time I spoke to a local SA bike 'maker' they were paying in the region of ZAR 500k per mould.

So, you'd be daft to pay 500k and not make a frame your own. Might as well just get an off-the-shelf design then if you want to copy. That's probably what Raleigh did here.

 

A lot of carbon frames are not monocoq anymore, but use a tube to tube construction method, first used for the Scott CR1. That wat they dont have to make a new mould for every frame size. If they changed the top tub, they would only need new tooling for that. I dont know how the Vipa is made, Im just wondering.