patches Posted August 21, 2013 Share I think the attention seeking thread is in another forum. I know, I know... but there was a point to it... and that is simlar to your intention. Many unsuspecting hubbers purchase items from other hubbers under the impression that they are getting an original GT40, when they're actually just getting a kit car. One hubber PM'd me asking me why his Boxxer WC fork wasn't holding air (another hubber sold it to him as a "WC"), when in fact it was gutted and was running coil. One can cringe when browsing the classifieds. People selling used items for more than the new price, and others not-in-the-know jumping at what they think is a bargain. Those I let slide cos it's not cool to sabotage someones sale. But to see item Y advertised as X... I think diplomatic reproach should be administered in such instances Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hennie VR Posted August 21, 2013 Share I might be wrong here but the brand/logo is a trademark and its not allowed to be copied or used. Its gets registered and is only allowed to be used by the company that its registered to. The frames on the other hand is a patent. If I have a patent on a design I can sell it to you and you are allowed to use it but not a trademark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Travis. Posted August 21, 2013 Share That's like putting a copyright on a mathematical equation. Don't try and fool us normal folk with illogical words. Please make sense when you post next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rouxtjie Posted August 21, 2013 Share That's like putting a copyright on a mathematical equation.I understand...and also why I am saying it will be hard to enforce or police, but it doesn't take away from the fact the it was still the big name brand that put their money into getting the angles and tube lengths to work together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rouxtjie Posted August 21, 2013 Share Exactly. The fake/counterfeit does not end with the brand/logo.The geometry is a patent that gets registered. If someone else wants to use that patent then they have to pay the owner for it. Thus in my opinion all the frames that are the same as the original but does not have the logo on it is still a counterfeit product.ahhh but I think they are quite sneaky that way....they copy the frame to the T but disclose minor differences, I mean who is going to measure they chainstay length or headtube angle after receiving their frame. So on paper they are different, but in reality they are not. In my case the difference in chainstay length was 1mm or 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azonic Posted August 21, 2013 Share I understand...and also why I am saying it will be hard to enforce or police, but it doesn't take away from the fact the it was still the big name brand that put their money into getting the angles and tube lengths to work together. Since the early 90's, just about ALL MTB's have floated around the 71/73 degree mark for head and seat tube. The rest then just differ for wheel size and frame size, give or take 1 or 2mm. I don't think it is possible to enforce. It like Toyota telling Ford they aren't allowed to fit a windscreen in a certain way because its gradient/angle is the same as theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rouxtjie Posted August 21, 2013 Share I might be wrong here but the brand/logo is a trademark and its not allowed to be copied or used. Its gets registered and is only allowed to be used by the company that its registered to. That is blatant and fraud of the bat The frames on the other hand is a patent. If I have a patent on a design I can sell it to you and you are allowed to use it but not a trademark. This is really the tricky / gray area....can you patent a frame's geometry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rouxtjie Posted August 21, 2013 Share Since the early 90's, just about ALL MTB's have floated around the 71/73 degree mark for head and seat tube. The rest then just differ for wheel size and frame size. I don't think it possible to enforce. It like Toyota telling Ford they aren't allowed to fit a windscreen in a certain way because its gradient/angle is the same as theirs.sure sure...but what about the combination of all the angles and lengths that make up bike in a certain size. If the combination of all the parts that ford fitted to their new model makes it look like a fortuner...but with no badge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azonic Posted August 21, 2013 Share I might be wrong here but the brand/logo is a trademark and its not allowed to be copied or used. Its gets registered and is only allowed to be used by the company that its registered to. ****. So you saying I should pull off the Specialized stickers I got at Nationals years ago and stuck on the back of my dad's Venter trailer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyster Posted August 21, 2013 Share If you have for instance a product, and have another product that looks exactly the same but is not branded with company A's logos, and you tell people that it isn't a real Product A and they are ok with that, is that still a counterfeit product? OK, so this gets quite interesting. In most cases, the absence of a trade mark (registered or well known), will mean that the look-a-like product is strictly speaking not counterfeit, even though it may have the same shape or form. In South Africa "counterfeit" has a very specific meaning, i.e. that the product bears a trade mark or the subject matter of copyright and imitates the genuine product to such a degree that members of the public will believe it to be the genuine product. (I am paraphrasing). Items which are the subject of registered patents or registered designs (typically patents or registered designs cover things like frame geo, locking mechs on pedals, carbon tech, etc.), are not necessarily counterfeit in the strict sense of the word, although they may infringe the patent or registered design. The most important distinction between a counterfeit product (trade mark + looks like the real thing) and a product which infringes a patent (eg same locking mech on a pedal, but has a different trade mark on it), is that patent infringement creates civil liability, whereas dealing in counterfeit goods creates civil and criminal liability. My apologies for being long winded, but it is a tricky question. The bottom line is that, in most cases (not all!), as long as the product is not protected by a patent, registered design or copyright, and it has no trade mark on it, it will not be considered counterfeit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rouxtjie Posted August 21, 2013 Share ****. So you saying I should pull off the Specialized stickers I got at Nationals years ago and stuck on the back of my dad's Venter trailer?Does Venter make bikes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hennie VR Posted August 21, 2013 Share ****. So you saying I should pull off the Specialized stickers I got at Nationals years ago and stuck on the back of my dad's Venter trailer? Hahahaha. ummm....... No but dont go and sell it as a Specialized trailer.Look, I'm no expert. Just saying it as I understand it. Geometries can be the same for different bikes but generally they will adapt the look of the frame thus it will not look the same as another brand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyster Posted August 21, 2013 Share There are very specific requirements for being able to patent an invention. The invention may not be obvious and must involve an inventive step. Furthermore, it may not form part of the "state of the art" - i.e. it must not exist elsewhere. So to put it in context, I doubt (and this is my personal opinion), that changing frame geo would be patentable. However, creating a shock with only one arm (alla the much loved Lefty), could quite possibly have been patentable prior to it being put on the market - it may even have been patented - I dunno. Patents also have a limited life span. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyster Posted August 21, 2013 Share ****. So you saying I should pull off the Specialized stickers I got at Nationals years ago and stuck on the back of my dad's Venter trailer?Funny - guess it was Venterized! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rouxtjie Posted August 21, 2013 Share There are very specific requirements for being able to patent an invention. The invention may not be obvious and must involve an inventive step. Furthermore, it may not form part of the "state of the art" - i.e. it must not exist elsewhere. So to put it in context, I doubt (and this is my personal opinion), that changing frame geo would be patentable. However, creating a shock with only one arm (alla the much loved Lefty), could quite possibly have been patentable prior to it being put on the market - it may even have been patented - I dunno. Patents also have a limited life span.Ta thanks. So in other words the chinese are within their rights to take a frame and copy the geometry, and create blanks without owing the big brands a cent ito the R&D that went into making it work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyster Posted August 21, 2013 Share On condition that the frame design is not subject to a patent or a registered design or copyright (the latter two have different requirements to patents), yes. Something else has also popped into my head though - when speaking of frame geo there are in some cases factors other than just the angles and lengths which have to be considered - for example, the way the stays cross over on the seat post on the new Pina's, or the way the carbon chain stays flex on a Scalpel. These "inventions" form part of the frame geo, but could be patentable inventions all by themselves. Sorry rouxtjie - never expect a straight answer from a lawyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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