Short Stem

[DieselnDust]

There you are then and I suspect the tshirt is ill fitting!

 

Have read enough that you do not understand the concept of the knee angle and is definitely not related to pedal spindle, but each to their own. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, especially when you mention a forward facing seat post on a specific bike and fail to address the change in saddle height required for that forward position... but instead try to use it as an example to justify to the OP to just move his RB saddle forward as per your earlier post.

 

To the OP, glad you got sorted with a new stem, hopefully will give more confidence on the descents.

 

 

stop reading selectively to suit your own agenda

[Tomik]

75mm stem is too short for a road bikes geometry. You already have very short trail compared to a mtb so you need a longer stem to balance the bike. 

An 80 mm stem is not much of an extension so try a 90mm. 

You can also slide the saddle forward on the rails to keep the effective reach the same. You will have more weight forward as well as the extra stability of the longer stem

 

A 75mm stem is not necessarily too short. I ride a Large frame (Swift Ultravox Team Issue) with an 80mm stem and my bike handles like a go-cart. I'm 1.86cm by the way so the frame is a good fit. Have decent setback and am super comfortable on the bike, uphill or downhill (been cycling in the Alps - loved every minute, no twitchiness whatsoever). I'm not the most flexible person so that might contribute but no matter how much stretching I do, my reach doesn't change all that much.

 

Point is, everybody has a different body shape and is functionally different so each bike fit will thus be different. Blanket statements as above probably work for the average person, but not many people are average. 

 

The 90mm stem sounds about right for the OP based on the previous posts assuming he can get comfortable with it. Moving saddle forward is not a great solution for this problem as it can lead to knee pain from too much quad use if the OP is unaccustomed to this position.

[DieselnDust]

I have a theory on this ....

 

People start out on a "shop assembled" setup, and start riding .... often the only reason for a proper bike-fit is because the person starts experiencing some or other issues ....

 

This is true. Often an initial bike shop set up is very basic. Get the saddle height right, get the bar height more or less correct, set up the pedals and cleats. I see this a lot. Often hen people say they'd like a proper bike fit is because as you say, they are experiencing some form of recurring discomfort that they are attributing to their current bike fit. However, in many cases the discomfort is not because of the bike fit but because they have an underlying issue they don't know about or don't want to deal with. There are people who have inherent anatomical challenges, e.g, severe leg length discrepancies, mild scoliosis of the spine, etc, where I would refer them to a doctor and biokinetisist as these types of physical challenges requires special adaptations the cycling equipment.

 

SCARY the number of incorrect bike sizes that gets diagnosed at this stage !!

 

Blame compact frame designs for this one. Often the incorrect size is sold because it's whats in stock and sales people use the "bigger bike = more stability " reasoning. Might work with some MTB's but for road bikes it doesn't apply because a too large frame requires finishing kit that the bike was not designed to work optimally with. 

 

 

So now the bikefit specialist gets to work .... you get the wannabee "specialist" that heard from a friend that the knee-to-pedal needs to be a certain way, and the heal on the pedal, yada yada ...  Then you get those that are trained bio-keneticists, and studied the art of bike fit.  The first session is 90 minutes, of which it takes more than an hour before you get onto the bike.  BUT, now this specialist has some understanding of the person in front of them .... and the bikefit is almost a form of art to merge the science of dimensions to the bio-measurements and quirks of the rider ....

 

Agree, any bike fit should start off with a long conversation. The How Long, How far, how fast type questions.

 

For the NEW rider there seems to be one constant though .... the optimal setup is often just far enough from what the did before that some discomfort and\or handling issues are experienced.

 

Do you now revert back to some half-setup that is not optimal, but makes the rider feel "comfortable" ?

 

Must the rider just suck it up and get used to it ?

 

OR, heaven forbid, is the saddle 5mm too high and the hips start rocking causing lower back issues ?

 

 

Which is why your professional bike fitters have a follow up session one month (couple of rides) after the initial setup.

define "NEW rider". I don't see many problems with discomfort except in the behind because they not used to sitting on a saddle for very long. Most are coming off a gym bike on which they sit too upright on too wide and too soft a saddle. Address these issues and their comfort levels improve. As they start too ride more, discomfort will creep in other areas and often this is due to the flexibility changes over time. Do you now change the set up or tell the rider to stretch more and do some flexibility exercises?

Generally addressing the rider is the better solution. If the basic bike set up is sound then improving flexibility is good. How well has the rider been sleeping? Hydrating? Diet good or too many pork pies? Does it make sense to change the bike set up every time there's a niggle that is likely due to other influences> 

 

 

 

I know that my current setup has the handle bars just that little bit higher than the optimal setup.  It works for me, at this time .....  I will be working on my core muscles, and I know that I am already a LOT more flexible than 3 years ago, let's see how my body adapt to the bike posture in the next 12 to 18 months .... I am sure that my setup will undergo minor tweaks.

 

This is natural. You may want to raise the saddIle a few mm, drop the bars a cm, play with the reach or position of the saddle over the bb.

So I know my saddle height range is about 15mm, reach I can play with 10mm and effective seat angle range is 72.5 degree to 75 degrees. The only time I make a change is when I feel a bit of longer term discomfort. Discomfort on one ride isn't indicative of anything. If I find myself riding more on the rear of my saddle for a ride or two then I go for a massage as it means I'm probably tight somewhere and stretching isn't sorting it out. If  the desire to ride further back in the saddle persists for a few weeks then I make a small change. I won't necessarily change the seat height since I can accommodate quite a large range before it impacts my power.

 

 

Clearly this relates more to the "new rider" than the athlete that is already in shape, and merely needs a bikefit .... then the setup should be much more spot-on the first time, though I know that even these riders go back after a month for that last tweaks ....

 

There is never a last tweak. A bike fit should provide you with a range of measurement that works for your physical build and the bike you're riding. Any bike fitter who gives you hard and fast measurements and an absolute bike fit is taking your money and laughing.  I have learned to avoid these practitioners because the human body is a not  rigid inflexible machine. If they fail to realise this flexibility and build it into the set up then they're just setting themselves up for repeat business. I believe those who have the necessary skill and training to address anatomical challenges are worth their salt. These professionals can correct the impact of wobbly knees or big leg length discrepancies etc. This is not the realm of basic bike fit that most bike fit practitioners are applying

 

 

 

Any bike fit is a ball park set up.as there are several factors that influence any one individuals flexibility on a day to day basis. Changes in your flexibility will impact on how the rider "feels" on the bike and how they are able to deliver power.

There are also anatomical adaptations as the rider builds strength that will influence how the fit needs to be adapted over time and this is also influenced by the bike they want to ride or are riding. Its always a moving target and absolute measurements are only true for very small moments in time. No two pedal strokes are the same

[DieselnDust]

A 75mm stem is not necessarily too short. I ride a Large frame (Swift Ultravox Team Issue) with an 80mm stem and my bike handles like a go-cart. I'm 1.86cm by the way so the frame is a good fit. Have decent setback and am super comfortable on the bike, uphill or downhill (been cycling in the Alps - loved every minute, no twitchiness whatsoever). I'm not the most flexible person so that might contribute but no matter how much stretching I do, my reach doesn't change all that much.

 

 

OP is experiencing handling problems with the bike so moving the weight around is the solution. To achieve that the body has to be further forward so the saddle has to move forward and a longer stem keeps the reach in check.

 

Point is, everybody has a different body shape and is functionally different so each bike fit will thus be different. Blanket statements as above probably work for the average person, but not many people are average. 

Agreed, and this is the position I take on bikefit.

 

The 90mm stem sounds about right for the OP based on the previous posts assuming he can get comfortable with it. Moving saddle forward is not a great solution for this problem as it can lead to knee pain from too much quad use if the OP is unaccustomed to this position.

 

Disagree with the bolded bit. We are not talking about changing to a Brian Obree "superman" position on the bike. We're talking about 10-15mm which the human body can absorb quite readily. The only reason OP will get more quad pain is because he's pushing harder which means that he is producing more power which is usually a positive outcome for a bikefit. 

The relatively small range of adjustment that a seatpost allows isn't going to significantly change the riders position such that they risk injury. Also everyone shifts about on their saddle by more than 10mm during any given ride.

So why would a saddle shift of 10-15mm cause injury?

[Tomik]

 

 

Disagree with the bolded bit. We are not talking about changing to a Brian Obree "superman" position on the bike. We're talking about 10-15mm which the human body can absorb quite readily. The only reason OP will get more quad pain is because he's pushing harder which means that he is producing more power which is usually a positive outcome for a bikefit. 

The relatively small range of adjustment that a seatpost allows isn't going to significantly change the riders position such that they risk injury. Also everyone shifts about on their saddle by more than 10mm during any given ride.

So why would a saddle shift of 10-15mm cause injury?

 

 

Some people (myself included) can be sensitive to even 10mm changes to fore-aft positioning as it places different stresses on the knee than one is used to. I'm not saying it will, but it can and the OP should be aware of it.

 

I don't shift in my saddle much at all - have a Romin which doesn't really allow one to shift much - but during some experimentation with setback, 10mm is a big shift for me. It effectively reduces my setback from 8.3mm to -1.7mm (i.e. tip of saddle in front of BB).

 

It might work for the OP if his original position was really far back but this is unlikely since he went to a professional (I assume) bike fit. Still worth a try to improve handling, but he should just be aware of the other implications.