Eldron Posted December 8, 2008 Share yeah' date=' but I didnt say 'downhill park'. These parks [logwood & this'] have supposed rated routes that are nowhere near up to scratch.Glad you worked at Linden cycles. They might no be up to your scratch or the latest fox vide scratc but they are certainly up to 90% of mtb rider's scratch. ...and you speak for the 90% then do you? No I don't but I've done enough races, ridden with enough people/clubs and have enough riding mates to know that 90% of them would prefer to ride smoothish trails with a few drops offs and snappy turns than a teeter totter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hog_ Posted December 8, 2008 Share Sure the target market can be for you family mtber' date=' but then cater for the rest of the guys and build proper black routes, how many routes are there in the park at the moment? Let's say argument purpose, there's 10, then make 3 black routes with say the first one normal black, 2nd one double diamond and third, triple diamond, then they still cater for their "intended"market, but won't loose out on riders wanting to ride a bit more. oh and the freeride crowd goes to The Backyard park.[/quote'] I think there's 1 'black' route, and 1 or 2 jumps that are supposedly 'black'. I would LOVE it if they built more gnarly stuff, but with limited space you need to focus on your cash cow. If you only have space for 10 routes, rather make all 10 ridable to the average rider, because it will keep him, and his buddies coming back. When I tell my friends about the stuff I ride at Logwood they think I'm nuts, and they won't go riding with me, ever. If I kept quiet and just told them about NF and Groenkloof rides, I'm sure they would have joined me by now. I will also say that while I support the direction of the Bryanston park 100%, I will be first in line for an annual pass if anyone built a dedicated Freeride park in the area. So where's your Backyard Park? I live in the complex, and they frown upon it when I ride on the other units' walls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaulter1 Posted December 8, 2008 Share Having started this thread yesterday, I thought I'd quickly weigh in again on a few points... While the range of North Shore stunts does head towards the insane with5m jumps and ladder bridges made from a single 2x4, the type I was expecting to find at the MTN park would include is slightly more docile - geared towardsbuilding up the skills of kids/beginners thru seasoned veterans. Maybe this in front of the coffee shop? http://www.hcor.net/gallery/NemesisProject/AUT_4635.sized.jpg Try taking a look at this link to see some innovative ideas of lots of stuff in a small space...http://evergreenmtb.org/wiki/index.php?title=Trail:I-5_Colonnade or carve out a bit of space around the massive BMX track for this:http://www.plainfieldbikepark.com/images/bikepark12-7_letter.jpg Notice the Green route has tiny obstacles for beginners or kids but the expert line gives Whistler a run for its money. And this park is on 2 acres outside Chicago that's setup by the local City Parks FOR FREE. I understand the reason we have paid bike parks here - Safety. I also understand that XC riders in JHB far outnumber the Freeride/DirtJump crowd both in total numbers and in willingness to spend money on their hobby (maybe that's just me though) but I think that most XC riders would love to give the burly stuff a try in a controlled environment where they can start small and build up (on their XC bike no less) I guess the best I can hope for is that there's still a lot of development to be done at the park and instead of building more XC trails they'll earmark some space for a PROPER skills area. Heck - copy the plans straight from a park in the US or Canada then I'll have nothing to complain about. No need to reinvent the wheel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hog_ Posted December 8, 2008 Share Vaulter I would love to see a park like that over here! There's a pine forest in my street, 1 street down from the bike park, you think anyone would mind if we start building some stuff in there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Daemon_ Posted December 8, 2008 Share So where's your Backyard Park? I live in the complex' date=' and they frown upon it when I ride on the other units' walls. [/quote'] You have a PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldron Posted December 8, 2008 Share Having started this thread yesterday' date=' I thought I'd quickly weigh in again on a few points...While the range of North Shore stunts does head towards the insane with 5m jumps and ladder bridges made from a single 2x4, the type I was expecting to find at the MTN park would include is slightly more docile - geared towards building up the skills of kids/beginners thru seasoned veterans. Maybe this in front of the coffee shop?Try taking a look at this link to see some innovative ideas of lots of stuff in a small space...http://evergreenmtb.org/wiki/index.php?title=Trail:I-5_Colonnadeor carve out a bit of space around the massive BMX track for this:Notice the Green route has tiny obstacles for beginners or kids but the expert line gives Whistler a run for its money. And this park is on 2 acres outside Chicago that's setup by the local City Parks FOR FREE.I understand the reason we have paid bike parks here - Safety. I also understand that XC riders in JHB far outnumber the Freeride/DirtJump crowd both in total numbers and in willingness to spend money on their hobby (maybe that's just me though) but I think that most XC riders would love to give the burly stuff a try in a controlled environment where they can start small and build up (on their XC bike no less)I guess the best I can hope for is that there's still a lot of development to be done at the park and instead of building more XC trails they'll earmark some space for a PROPER skills area. Heck - copy the plans straight from a park in the US or Canada then I'll have nothing to complain about. No need to reinvent the wheel![/quote'] Now that is something I'd buy an annual pass to! I'm fairly confident the local bike parks will continue to grow towards more technical and challenging routes. Most bike parks are only a few years old and they've already grown tremendously. I guess as in all things it comes down to money - here is SA feeding, clothing and housing the poor and changing street names (?!) garners most of the money - precious little left for a sport that is almost exclusively white... Oh damn - I've just gone all political on your ass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MintSauce Posted December 8, 2008 Share The kind of park that MTN is does not exist many places overseas and that's the problem for me. It is not World Class because we are paying someone for a location that' date=' in many parts of the US and Canada, is provided by the local parks service and local associations (think IMBA, NSMBA, etc) for free with a little labor. [/quote'] You make some valid points. I only wish to address this one though. You need to understand some of the major differences between SA and Canada to understand why we don't have the riding infrastructure they have. As for the Whistler Bikepark, there are some facts that a lot of people are not aware of. They don't realise that the BIKE park is NOT self-sustaining. The Whistler SKIresort is self-sustaining and has been for 30 years. The bike park,with it's 100000 odd visitors a year is simply piggy-backing on the2 million+ skiers that pay for the hotels, skilifts and restaurants tostay open all year. This is even reflected in ticket pricing since the lift tikets cost almost half of what they cost in winter. For this reason, I highly doubt we will ever see a bikepark even remotely up to that standard. Personally, I'd much rather see the development of a natural trail system similar to the one in Canada. I have been to Logwood and anything similar would simply not be my cup of tea. It's simply personal preference. That being said, I do believe it has it's place especially from a family and safety perspective. I.t.o natural trail systems, there are some other major factors to consider. In Canada you have millions of square kilometers of forests. You have a public opposed to it being logged. You have a government that actively seeks to improve the health of it's people and is prepared to spend large amounts of money giving them the facilities to work out and stay fit....for free You have a nation that are passionate and will fight for something they believe in, especially their recreation and the outdoors. Those two things are ingrained in their culture. You have progressive advocacy groups like IMBA, NSMBA and WORCA fighting for these rights. If you followed the freeride movement in the early to mid 90s, you would have read the articles reporting the regular clashes between MTBers and the community....illegal trails, illegal structures being sabotaged etc etc. It is the fact that riders came together under these initiatives thatis almost solely responsible for the sport gaining credibility inCanada.It gave them a voice and made authorities stand up and take notice. At present, the Vancouver local government will consult with the NSMBA before new land is developed and get input on how to incorporate new trails or the best way to move existing trails. They are now considered a part of the community and respected for their contribution to the area because of their efforts in developing the infrastructure and also the economic impact this has had on the area. There are more trails than you can dream of. The maps are littered withincredible trails and if you're lucky you get to meet a local that willshow you the 'good stuff' that's not even mapped. It's everywhere! Will we ever see our trail systems get to that level...? It's possible to an extent. Even though it would never be financially viable to have a bikepark similar to the one in Whistler, there's no reason why we can't have the normal trail network they do. Allthough we don't have the amount of terrain, there is potential. So, question is, how many of us have joined AMARIDER/Dirtopia? The reason I ask is simple if you'll bare with me. What are the good riding spots in the Western Cape? JHKLebanonThandiDelveraTokaiTablemountain Amarider is involved in all these areas through planning, development, building, maintenance and so forth. Thandi and Delvera would not even have existed if it were not for Dirtopia making it happen! They built the original trails at Lebanon and it is their advocacy that has resulted in ALL the major singletrack that everyone keeps raving about in JHK. They also do all maintenance at Tokai and have been instrumental in developing a trail management plan for the Table Mountain Park, a plan some 2 years in the making. They are the IMBA, NSMBA and WORCA we've all been waiting for. Meurant has a vision for mountain biking that a lot of us would look at and think "Never!", but he has already achieved what I personally would never have thought possible. If you want to see trails developed, that's the way to go. Dirt Rider** said he would join Amarider when they start building trails in JHB. That's just silly. They are based in CPT and the areas they've developed locally were all years in the making. Thandi itself took about 2-3 years of relationship building before they were given the go-ahead. They ARE busy looking at areas in JHB and have already started building trails in KZN. But, they do it right the first time. That means working with the local authorities and doing proper groundwork to ensure the trails are truly sustainable. This all takes time. Keep in mind that the advocacy groups in Canada have been hard at work for 10-15 years. Eventually Amarider's efforts will spread accross the country. Have a look herehttp://www.givengain.com/cgi-bin/giga.cgi Best of all, it's a non-profit organisation. No brand promoting or profit seeking involved. And if you doubt that statement all you need to do is sit around a fire and talk mountain biking with Meurant for a few hours and you will see just how passionate he is about what he does. www.amarider.co.za **LOSER OLD BALLIE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hog_ Posted December 8, 2008 Share Post of the day/week/month. Thank you Minty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MintSauce Posted December 8, 2008 Share yeah' date=' but I didnt say 'downhill park'. These parks [logwood & this'] have supposed rated routes that are nowhere near up to scratch.Glad you worked at Linden cycles. They might no be up to your scratch or the latest fox vide scratc but they are certainly up to 90% of mtb rider's scratch. Eldron....I think what bust means is that they are grading routes as 'black diamond' when the routes are not up to scratch i.t.o. technical difficulty. It has nothing to do with the rider's abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hog_ Posted December 8, 2008 Share Maybe the Black rating for Space Junk was intentional? Imagine the amount of people breaking themselves on that drop off and/or the roll-down if it was marked blue! At least a Black rating will scare off a few people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bustthesickness Posted December 8, 2008 Share Thanks Mint. That IS what I meant, which was why I provided a link to the IMBA grading chart. There is NO WAY that any trail at logwood is DOUBLE Black Diamond. The fact that many riders are still on their XC bikes, shaving their legs, donning spandex and going to bike parks with their 'bull bars' does not mean that we can't build a DBD trail. Mint, your long post above is very true. It IS why the Canadians have been at the forefront of hard trail riding since the beginning. It does serve to prove a point, that children need access to these hard routes in order to progress from an early age. I have been looking at several areas to build trails. All of them on private land. There is PLENTY of hard riding potential in SA. Heaps. It's just about working with what you have. We dont have vast tracts of unspoken for land, we have landowners. We need to get them involved and see the benefits of the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bustthesickness Posted December 8, 2008 Share Maybe the Black rating for Space Junk was intentional? Imagine the amount of people breaking themselves on that drop off and/or the roll-down if it was marked blue! At least a Black rating will scare off a few people.Not a good enough reason to overgrade a trail. Let people learn how to read a trail guide, how to 'proceed with caution', to not just bomb down a track without knowing what's around the next bend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaulter1 Posted December 8, 2008 Share @Hog: I'll bring a saw, hammer, and drill but I'll club in for a chainsaw if required - got any ski caps we can wear while working at night on the course?@Mintsauce: Very true for the most part though I disagree somewhat with the Whistler details. The actual MTB park is self-sustaining, it is the sprawling village and lodging infrastructure that needs the wintertime to make most of its profit. The season passes for the bike park are actually 1/3 the cost of the ski season which is $1,529 for this winter (I could never afford a season pass even at student rates) but the bike park is MUCH smaller than the skiing availabile on Whistler and Blackcomb. The two points you made that I think are spot on and damn scary, not trying to get too political, are You have a government that actively seeks to improve the health of it's people and is prepared to spend large amounts of money giving them the facilities to work out and stay fit....for free(I do have to note that the government you refer to is using taxpayer's dollars to help out the citizens that elected them' date=' instead of buying Mercs and Mansions for their cousins.)andYou have a nation that are passionate and will fight for something they believe in, especially their recreation and the outdoors. Those two things are ingrained in their culture.(my own pet-peeve about most South Africans is the seeming lack of passion or willingness to fight for what they believe- but that's just my foreigner point of view) What I was trying to focus on in my second post, with pics of other parks, is to show that by refering to "world class" parks I am not saying I expect a Whistler in SA. In fact, the Plainfield Bike Park in the schematic is in the mid-west, a part of the States that makes the Freestate look more rugged than the Alps If there were one thing I could actually change or influence about ANY new bikepark in SA is the inclusion of "non-trail" areas. Add a decent size pump-track, put up some varying size dirtjumps (a-la Plainfield), low height ladder features, and skills courses: http://evergreenmtb.org/wiki/index.php?title=Trail:I-5_Colonnade (that one's sandwiched under a freeway overpass). I get the fact that there's not enough space but if I look at the MTN park (and I'll give them the benifit of the doubt that they're not finished) there's actually alot of wasted space. I've ridden all of the trails that are open so far, a number of times, and ridden the parts of the BMX course and Mini-pumptrack that weren't flooded, but there are no features to keep me there for hours working on my skills (or lack thereof) and come away having ridden for the day and enjoyed every moment. Just to end with a few more images of the stuff I'm looking for in a park (and no that's not me in the pics they were "lifted" from NSMB)... http://nsmb.com/assets/images/gear/2009%20DB%20Mission%203/Mission%20Ed%20wallride2%20gimped.JPGhttp://www.nsmb.com/assets/images/gear/2009%20DB%20Mission%203/Mission%20Ed%20BB%20gimped.JPGhttp://www.nsmb.com/assets/images/gear/2009%20DB%20Mission%203/Mission%20Ed%20Drop%20gimped.JPG vaulter12008-12-08 09:55:39 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daft Vader Posted December 9, 2008 Share I have some comments to update some of the viewpoints expressed. The FR stuff is still going to be built. Some of the Spruit builders are keen to help. It's a start. The DJ's are being built. FR are still the minority, so I'm afraid we have to wait. Do you know how many retards have hurt themselves on the 2 small (read fuggin TINY) jumps on the Space Junkie (Black) run. I have personally seen 6 people carried out of there on backboards. Imagine if it was a really technical run. And you can't blame the bike park for that. As for all things, they will cater for the masses. And they must. Lets face it, the park will not be sustainable if it catered predominantly for the FR brigade. (As much as I would love it.) I have not seen any of the hard-core (by the way people talk) FR brigade there, so when the big stuff comes, I'm sure you will all be nailing it coz you are SOOO good. Personally, I really enjoy 2 trails. One is a green run with excellent flow. The second is a blue run ending in the drop zone. You can get decent air on that trail if you ride it hard enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Daemon_ Posted December 11, 2008 Share How nice would it not be if the bike park had a section like this. cheap to build, and perfect to build skills on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skipperw Posted December 11, 2008 Share hey Daft Vader no need to go brandishing names. i was one of those 'retards'. call us 'special' instead...much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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