Stans/Joes..the bubble...

[HomerSimpson]

has burst?  W.r.t the other thread (Kenda tyres and sealant):  we have had issues twice with Maxxis tyres (tubeless) and "blistering" on the tyre (looks like the tyre develops a growth).  Sent tyres back to Maxxis via bike shop and was given a limited refund (dependent on tyre wear),  The official word from Maxxis was that the problem was caused by the ammonia in sealants like Stans and Joes, and that in the future the tyres would (like the Kenda, and apparently also Hutchinsons) will carry a warning regarding the use of sealants containing ammonia.

So basically you have people manufacturing tubeless tyres and then telling you that the use of commonly available sealants is not allowed and will void any warranty on the tyre???

[AndreJ]

Is this only on new Maxxis tyres? I've been running Maxxis with Stan's for more than 3 years with zero problems and only 1 puncture (my own fault because the sealant was dry)

[HomerSimpson]

I think it occurs randomly (we were just unlucky I guess), but have spoken to people that have had the same problem two or so years ago:  there just seems to be a lot of it happening recently (could just be because more people are riding tubeless). 

[splat]

The Maxxis bubble thing is not new, but Maxxis will do a limited replacement on the tyre. Kenda isn't interested if you have used sealant.

 

How many people around the world run tubeless without sealant? Isnt that half the point?

 

(repeating what you said a bit there Homey)

[Johan Bornman]

Homer, I don't think the problem is random. I think the offending chemical gets into the laminate, behind the protective inner rubber, by way of a previous puncture or imperfection.  It then carves out an underground cavern of sorts and causes a bubble as the air then enters the eroded laminate.

 

I've put pieces of the tyre in a 20% ammonia solutin and can't seem to find any evidence of chemical erosion at all.

 

But as you say, it is a poor show from the manufacturers. I think they need to change their tyre composition in order to deal with the issue. Ammonia is the most effective, cheap preservative for latex and as far as I can see, latex is the future of puncture plugging.

 

 

[Troi Sport]

Warranty Disclaimer - from the American Schwalbe site

 

?The use of any brand other than SCHWALBE’s “self-sealing” products and/or aftermarket “sealant” systems for the purpose of converting a non-tubeless tire to tubeless, used either on non-UST rims or UST rims, will void any warranty given by the tire manufacturer. ?

?The use of any brand other than SCHWALBE’s “self-sealing” products may over time degrade the interior wall of tires, especially non-tubeless tires, resulting in a blistering of the tread and surface layer on the exterior of the tire. This is not a manufacturing defect but the result of an incompatibility of the sealant with the rubber compound and therefore not considered a warranty issue. ?

 

 

[paulvs]

http://www.durexhibit.co.uk/thumbs/279/123.png

 

[HomerSimpson]

Homer' date=' I don't think the problem is random. I think the offending chemical gets into the laminate, behind the protective inner rubber, by way of a previous puncture or imperfection.  It then carves out an underground cavern of sorts and causes a bubble as the air then enters the eroded laminate.

 

I've put pieces of the tyre in a 20% ammonia solutin and can't seem to find any evidence of chemical erosion at all.

 

But as you say, it is a poor show from the manufacturers. I think they need to change their tyre composition in order to deal with the issue. Ammonia is the most effective, cheap preservative for latex and as far as I can see, latex is the future of puncture plugging.

 

 

[/quote']

 

Yes Johan, as a material scientist with more than passing knowledge of rubber chemistry etc, I find the ammonia excuse a little puzzling.  The problem is random in the sense that not all tyres fail.  I think a lot here has to do with the (lack of) quality control during the tyre manufacture.  Delamination of the rubber layer on the inside allowing ingress of the allegedly agressive ammonia-containing liquid must be due to manufacturing issues.

Interestingly the one case happened shortly after my son added Stans after running the tyre for almost 9 months after initially fitting the tyres (so the Stans had evaporated completely a long time ago).

The other question that comes to mind is whether stabilizing the latex is really neccessary?  OK, for shelf life yes, but inside the tyre the liquid evaporates fairly rapidly, and the rubber is deposited on the tyre fairly rapidly.

[Johan Bornman]

Yes Johan' date=' as a material scientist with more than passing knowledge of rubber chemistry etc, I find the ammonia excuse a little puzzling.  The problem is random in the sense that not all tyres fail.  I think a lot here has to do with the (lack of) quality control during the tyre manufacture.  Delamination of the rubber layer on the inside allowing ingress of the allegedly agressive ammonia-containing liquid must be due to manufacturing issues.

Interestingly the one case happened shortly after my son added Stans after running the tyre for almost 9 months after initially fitting the tyres (so the Stans had evaporated completely a long time ago).

The other question that comes to mind is whether stabilizing the latex is really neccessary?  OK, for shelf life yes, but inside the tyre the liquid evaporates fairly rapidly, and the rubber is deposited on the tyre fairly rapidly.

[/quote']

 

The latex does need some stabilisation and at least, some dilution. I tried pure latex once and it was a huge mess. Worse than sitting in fresh chewing gum on a hot bus seat. The stuff solidified within days, created a dinousaur sized snot ball that put my bike so out of balance I thought I was at the rodeo.

 

What is the alternative stabiliser and diluter though? I've used the stuff in car window washer additives (alcohol-based, I guess from the great taste and smell) with success but the cost is too high.

 

PS - when are you getting one of your students to burn some tyres for us to see if there is silica or carbon black inside?

 

 

 

 

 

[Thug]

 

Johan, there are numerous recipes on the net for tubeless sealants and they all generally use Liquid Latex, Windshield Washer Fluid, Water and/or Slime in varying combinations.

 

Have a look at this thread on Mtbr 

 

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=4032

 

and

 

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=406115

 

 

The Thug2009-01-19 05:50:01

[Johan Bornman]

Johan' date=' there are numerous recipes on the net for tubeless sealants and they all generally use Liquid Latex, Windshield Washer Fluid, Water and/or Slime in varying combinations.

Have a look at this thread on Mtbr 

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=4032

and

http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=406115

[/quote']

 

or.....

 

http://www.yellowsaddle.co.za/Docs/docs%20html/Homebrew%20MTB%20Tubeless%20conversion.html

 

The windscreen washer concentrate works, but at R15-00 per 50ml it makes Stan's original seem cheap.

 

I'm after the stuff inside. Tasting and smelling gives me some clues but I'd like to be sure before buying 5l of the stuff.

 

Someone phoned me the other day and we discussed this. It turns out that some Free Stater (I like to think, but he wasn't identified) uses mieliemeel as his filler.

 

I've had success with cut hessian rope, sawdust and rubber rubbings (that stuff you get on your desk when your homework is a mess and you have to erase the lot).

 

The idea of buying Slime to dilute kinda corrups the very thought of making home-made slime.