I'M sick of these thugs

[Gasping]

Jammer BigH, Afrikaans is nie my moeder taal nie, maar ek moet bieg dat u 'n baie suiwer Afrikaans besig. 

 

Why is it that I am a sensitive person just because I care about the insults other people may feel? So for you it is a case of the ends justifies the means? It does not matter who gets hurt or insulted as long as cyclist behave properly?

 

All it would have taken is for a simple line in a post saying something like no offence intended, sorry, my mistake or something along those lines.

 

I am giving up. As I have posted before, the best thing about hitting your hit on a brick wall is when you stop. You get a tremendous feeling of relief.

 

Slander, insult, belittle and hurt away. 

 

 

[Guest Big H]

"I supported you in your quest to get cyclists to behave properly, then you too started getting mean and snide with your posts when people did not agree with you"

 

Not a very good display of your personality....... if you cannot support a cause by looking past the insidious habits of people the cause would be better off if you stay away!!!!!!!!!...... the cause cannot trust people like you!!!!!!!

Big H2009-12-11 06:44:06

[Guest Big H]

is that your new home up north big H

 

Yup..... untill 16 December and then off to Tsendze for three days, a new camp close to Mopani based on Balule. Park is incredibly green, water everywhere...... but not much animals, which is good as well...... that means the animals has enough!!!!!! Saw a Gymogene being mobbed by Starlings..... he felw from tree to tree but the gang would not leave him alone. He was then attacked by another eagle..... could not identufy..... and we were treted to amazing aerobatics as they clinbed in a thermal...... Kruger IS still that special place.

 

Piccie below is us at Balule on our way to Shingwedzi.

 

[Gasping]

[quote=Big H

Not a very good display of your personality....... if you cannot support a cause by looking past the insidious havbits of people you would be better off to saty ]away!!!!!!!!!

 

My personality might not be as scintillating as some, but my character does not overlook the "two wrongs make a right" thing. Sorry.

[GoLefty!!]

I think Big H is following my humour on the first posting.

 

My comments were intended to ruffle the feathers, however it appears that sometimes people do take things very seriously and that when it get personal.

 

In my origianl post I make no mention of names and I include myself by using "We", "Us" and not "you" and Them". I was pretty inclusive in my condemnation of the cycling community.

 

However it appears that neither Englsh nor Afrikaans is the frst language of some so next time indicate your first language preference and I will endeavour to accomodate. The only other language I speak is dutch with limited Spanish and even more limited French and German.

 

The intent of the post was to illustrate our bad behaviour and why motorists hate us. We are an inconvenience to others and therefore to ourselves. This needs to change.

 

Now licensing has been called sad, yet we gladly pay CSA a license for the privilege of competing in fun events. I have a different view on whats actually sad.

 - A license that certifies competency to ride a bicycle on public roads or,

 - A license that allows one to fantacise about being in the tour de france..

 

??

 

I for one have no issues with licenses, because I have worked on being competent. This does not make me immune to boxed motorists (like the idiot who tried to run  me onto the pavement yesterday morning - maybe a hubber??) but it shows a willingness to participate in road use competency by contributing to the coffers of local government. [cue arguement that we pay taxes blah blah blah]

 

Theres been some good suggestions. Re-introducing road safety education is one thing but it limits change to future generations.

Cycle lanes / paths will happen eventually but wherever these exist, recreational cyclists incl the olive oil tan watchers, will use the road, not the provided cycle path due to speed difference between them and the commuters.

 

So how do you go about getting that lot in line?

Clubs pay good lip service to the public but don;t appear to have any disciplinary action in place for members who transgress. This is a huge gap.

 

how do you prevent large groups of 10+ riders from blocking a public road on a busy weekend morning?

 

As with all things in life, laws, rules regulations are only there for the people who cannot think beyond their own immediate needs. Perhaps they are in the minority but the perception is different. Perceptions don;t go away because of newspaper articles or lip service over the radio. Perceptions go away by demonstrating different behaviours in front of major stakeholders. For a cyclist on a public road, those stakeholders are not the pedestrians, not the mayor, or PPA, but the people who hold our lifes between the steering wheel and tyres of their cars.

 

You don't throw stones at elephants do you......?

 

[Windbreaker]

 

I think Big H is following my humour on the first posting.

 

My comments were intended to ruffle the feathers' date=' however it appears that sometimes people do take things very seriously and that when it get personal.

 

In my origianl post I make no mention of names and I include myself by using "We", "Us" and not "you" and Them". I was pretty inclusive in my condemnation of the cycling community.

 

However it appears that neither Englsh nor Afrikaans is the frst language of some so next time indicate your first language preference and I will endeavour to accomodate. The only other language I speak is dutch with limited Spanish and even more limited French and German.

 

The intent of the post was to illustrate our bad behaviour and why motorists hate us. We are an inconvenience to others and therefore to ourselves. This needs to change.

 

Now licensing has been called sad, yet we gladly pay CSA a license for the privilege of competing in fun events. I have a different view on whats actually sad.

 - A license that certifies competency to ride a bicycle on public roads or,

 - A license that allows one to fantacise about being in the tour de france..

 

??

 

I for one have no issues with licenses, because I have worked on being competent. This does not make me immune to boxed motorists (like the idiot who tried to run  me onto the pavement yesterday morning - maybe a hubber??) but it shows a willingness to participate in road use competency by contributing to the coffers of local government. [cue arguement that we pay taxes blah blah blah']

 

Theres been some good suggestions. Re-introducing road safety education is one thing but it limits change to future generations.

Cycle lanes / paths will happen eventually but wherever these exist, recreational cyclists incl the olive oil tan watchers, will use the road, not the provided cycle path due to speed difference between them and the commuters.

 

So how do you go about getting that lot in line?

Clubs pay good lip service to the public but don;t appear to have any disciplinary action in place for members who transgress. This is a huge gap.

 

how do you prevent large groups of 10+ riders from blocking a public road on a busy weekend morning?

 

As with all things in life, laws, rules regulations are only there for the people who cannot think beyond their own immediate needs. Perhaps they are in the minority but the perception is different. Perceptions don;t go away because of newspaper articles or lip service over the radio. Perceptions go away by demonstrating different behaviours in front of major stakeholders. For a cyclist on a public road, those stakeholders are not the pedestrians, not the mayor, or PPA, but the people who hold our lifes between the steering wheel and tyres of their cars.

 

You don't throw stones at elephants do you......?

 

GoLefty, I didn't intend to respond on this thread nay longer but ...

 

a) If satire or humour was intended in the first post then it was in poor taste to use the death & memory of Chris Atwood. Poor taste.

 

b) If satire was intended besides a) above - you got hopelessly lost because the post really just came across as flatly insulting. Good satire doesn't only insult. A bit of advice, I'm certainly no literary expert but from watching the demise of the likes of Deon Maas and Jon Qwelane who are "profesional jouno's" that couldn't hack the satire thing, stick to the technical posts - they are your strong point.

 

c) The "road cylists are the pits" line has been flogged to death. You and others supporting your point, accept that generally, South African road users are the pits, so why should we single out road cyclists as requiring specific attention. The problem is much bigger than cyclists, and to make it a cylist specific issue is actually quite self centered, which in turn is a root cause of the bigger problem. The bulk of South African road users are generaly selfish and inconsiderate ... full stop! We think that our rights, our cause, our situation is/are more important than the next guys.

 

d) Then the bit that really gets my goat is when cyclists advocate that any harm that comes to cyclist is somehow deserved (the throw stones at elephants thing). That is a fundamental problem that cyclists face. Of course we shouldn't "misbehave" but even if we do it is completely unreasonable for any motorist to put our safety in danger, just as it is unreasonable to take aim at a jaywalking pedestrian. The analogy is flawed. We don't expect elephants to conform to norms of a civilised society do we?

 

Your's sincerely

Mr Self-righteous!

 

ps I'm off to have a beer with someone whose company I choose and enjoy.

 

[Lotus]

 

At least it would silence the ****ing motorists who complain we

don't belong on the road as we don't have licenses and don't

pay licensing fees.

 

Which is ironic seeing as I pay for a (big) car' date=' two motorbikes and

a trailer...

[/quote']

 

In that case you may enjoy this article. It's from Roadbikerider.com (a really nice weekly newsletter).

6. SCOTT'S

SPIN

 

 

 

Drive

Me Crazy

 

Non-cyclists are forever saying that bike riders should

be held to the same standards as motorists. Agreed, but

turnabout is fair play. Motorists should have to abide

by the same behavior expected of cyclists. For instance:

When drivers arrive at a stop sign or red light,

they must open the door and put one foot on the

ground to prove they have made a full stop.

 

 

 

Cyclists who momentarily leave the bike lane to

avoid an obstacle always suffer the wrath of

motorists. Similarly, cars should not be permitted

to change lanes in order to avoid mattresses,

ladders, pedestrians and the like.

 

 

 

Group rides get hassled. So should large groups of

motor vehicles. Find yourself driving in a long line

of cars on the highway? You're disrupting traffic

for everyone behind. The cops should be able to pull

you over and even confiscate your vehicle. (Might be

hard to get your car in the back seat of the

cruiser, but that's a detail to be worked out

later.)

 

 

 

Who always gets blamed in a car-bike crash? You got

it. Similarly, if a larger vehicle like a dump truck

collides with a car, it must be the car's fault.

Because they're operating a smaller class of

vehicle, car drivers de facto don't know what

they're doing and must be punished.

 

 

 

Cyclists are constantly being told they don't belong

on the road because they don't "pay taxes" by buying

gas, paying tolls, etc., even though many riders

also drive -- just not at this moment. Likewise,

motorists shouldn't have access to public services

like police protection on the road unless they are

actually paying their taxes while driving.

 

 

Which,

unfortunately, many drivers probably do.

 

[GoLefty!!]

 

I think Big H is following my humour on the first posting.

 

My comments were intended to ruffle the feathers' date=' however it appears that sometimes people do take things very seriously and that when it get personal.

 

In my origianl post I make no mention of names and I include myself by using "We", "Us" and not "you" and Them". I was pretty inclusive in my condemnation of the cycling community.

 

However it appears that neither Englsh nor Afrikaans is the frst language of some so next time indicate your first language preference and I will endeavour to accomodate. The only other language I speak is dutch with limited Spanish and even more limited French and German.

 

The intent of the post was to illustrate our bad behaviour and why motorists hate us. We are an inconvenience to others and therefore to ourselves. This needs to change.

 

Now licensing has been called sad, yet we gladly pay CSA a license for the privilege of competing in fun events. I have a different view on whats actually sad.

 - A license that certifies competency to ride a bicycle on public roads or,

 - A license that allows one to fantacise about being in the tour de france..

 

??

 

I for one have no issues with licenses, because I have worked on being competent. This does not make me immune to boxed motorists (like the idiot who tried to run  me onto the pavement yesterday morning - maybe a hubber??) but it shows a willingness to participate in road use competency by contributing to the coffers of local government. [cue arguement that we pay taxes blah blah blah']

 

Theres been some good suggestions. Re-introducing road safety education is one thing but it limits change to future generations.

Cycle lanes / paths will happen eventually but wherever these exist, recreational cyclists incl the olive oil tan watchers, will use the road, not the provided cycle path due to speed difference between them and the commuters.

 

So how do you go about getting that lot in line?

Clubs pay good lip service to the public but don;t appear to have any disciplinary action in place for members who transgress. This is a huge gap.

 

how do you prevent large groups of 10+ riders from blocking a public road on a busy weekend morning?

 

As with all things in life, laws, rules regulations are only there for the people who cannot think beyond their own immediate needs. Perhaps they are in the minority but the perception is different. Perceptions don;t go away because of newspaper articles or lip service over the radio. Perceptions go away by demonstrating different behaviours in front of major stakeholders. For a cyclist on a public road, those stakeholders are not the pedestrians, not the mayor, or PPA, but the people who hold our lifes between the steering wheel and tyres of their cars.

 

You don't throw stones at elephants do you......?

 

GoLefty, I didn't intend to respond on this thread nay longer but ...

 

a) If satire or humour was intended in the first post then it was in poor taste to use the death & memory of Chris Atwood. Poor taste.

 

b) If satire was intended besides a) above - you got hopelessly lost because the post really just came across as flatly insulting. Good satire doesn't only insult. A bit of advice, I'm certainly no literary expert but from watching the demise of the likes of Deon Maas and Jon Qwelane who are "profesional jouno's" that couldn't hack the satire thing, stick to the technical posts - they are your strong point.

 

c) The "road cylists are the pits" line has been flogged to death. You and others supporting your point, accept that generally, South African road users are the pits, so why should we single out road cyclists as requiring specific attention. The problem is much bigger than cyclists, and to make it a cylist specific issue is actually quite self centered, which in turn is a root cause of the bigger problem. The bulk of South African road users are generaly selfish and inconsiderate ... full stop! We think that our rights, our cause, our situation is/are more important than the next guys.

 

d) Then the bit that really gets my goat is when cyclists advocate that any harm that comes to cyclist is somehow deserved (the throw stones at elephants thing). That is a fundamental problem that cyclists face. Of course we shouldn't "misbehave" but even if we do it is completely unreasonable for any motorist to put our safety in danger, just as it is unreasonable to take aim at a jaywalking pedestrian. The analogy is flawed. We don't expect elephants to conform to norms of a civilised society do we?

 

Your's sincerely

Mr Self-righteous!

 

ps I'm off to have a beer with someone whose company I choose and enjoy.

 

Indeed you are no literary expert, neither am I but I do know tha satire or irony can be used wherever you chose in a single piece of journalism. The only satirical aspect was the self defaecating of roadies; I am both roadie and MTB'er.

 

I do not need to comment or your cheap shot re Chris Attwood.

 

The bigger problem of SA Motorists is not for this forum to discuss or solve. everyone wears halo's around here. This is a cycling forum and therefore cycling issues are discussed. That motorists are careless, selfish thugs is not a point of debate, it is common ground and would serve no purpose for this debate, yet somehow some feel that it should be made the topic of debate. I suggest you start yor own thread to discuss that. This thread related to the bad behaviour of cyclists and what we do to change our behaviour.

 

perhaps my "throw stones at elephants" analogy is flawed, but nowhere nearly as flawed as your continued arguing around points that have little relevance to this discussion. Like I said, you want to discuss motorists, start your own thread.

 

Enjoy the beer. I hope its cold.

 

[GoLefty!!]

 

At least it would silence the ****ing motorists who complain we

don't belong on the road as we don't have licenses and don't

pay licensing fees.

 

Which is ironic seeing as I pay for a (big) car' date=' two motorbikes and

a trailer...

[/quote']

 

In that case you may enjoy this article. It's from Roadbikerider.com (a really nice weekly newsletter).

6. SCOTT'S

SPIN

 

 

 

Drive

Me Crazy

 

Non-cyclists are forever saying that bike riders should

be held to the same standards as motorists. Agreed, but

turnabout is fair play. Motorists should have to abide

by the same behavior expected of cyclists. For instance:

When drivers arrive at a stop sign or red light,

they must open the door and put one foot on the

ground to prove they have made a full stop.

 

 

 

Cyclists who momentarily leave the bike lane to

avoid an obstacle always suffer the wrath of

motorists. Similarly, cars should not be permitted

to change lanes in order to avoid mattresses,

ladders, pedestrians and the like.

 

 

 

Group rides get hassled. So should large groups of

motor vehicles. Find yourself driving in a long line

of cars on the highway? You're disrupting traffic

for everyone behind. The cops should be able to pull

you over and even confiscate your vehicle. (Might be

hard to get your car in the back seat of the

cruiser, but that's a detail to be worked out

later.)

 

 

 

Who always gets blamed in a car-bike crash? You got

it. Similarly, if a larger vehicle like a dump truck

collides with a car, it must be the car's fault.

Because they're operating a smaller class of

vehicle, car drivers de facto don't know what

they're doing and must be punished.

 

 

 

Cyclists are constantly being told they don't belong

on the road because they don't "pay taxes" by buying

gas, paying tolls, etc., even though many riders

also drive -- just not at this moment. Likewise,

motorists shouldn't have access to public services

like police protection on the road unless they are

actually paying their taxes while driving.

 

 

Which,

unfortunately, many drivers probably do.

 

Lotus,

 

do a search on comments i have made re who should have right of way. You will find that I support a right of way structure based on vulnerability,i.e Pedestrarians have most right of way except of freeways, followed by cyclist with the same exclusion, then motorists, then heavy vehicles.

 

This topic is not about right of way, it is about cyclists behaviour.

right of way is a seperateissue because even with right of way, lawlessness with be even more rife meaning that cyclists will ignore the rules of the road due to "I have right of way". Effective policing of laws still needs to be in place in order to regualte behaviours or people need to regulate themselves.

 

So lets keep it on topic and not introduce side issues to distract for this discussion; Bad behaviour of cyclists on the road.

 

We can have a another discussion on bad behaviour of mountain bikers as well. I will contribute to that as well...just as I will contribute to a discussion on bad drving habits in SA.

Stick to the topic please

 

[Windbreaker]

No cheap shot. You make the decision to use his name & memory to support your waffle.

 

But you are right this is not about motorists, so we should all start a thread every day berating cyclists and stirring up sh*t just for the sake of stirring up sh*t - that certainly will change the underlying problem.

 

[GoLefty!!]

I thogh tyou were off to the pub. Oh i see it was just a childish mechanism used in an attempt to be dismissive and show your superiority in self righteousness. Poor attempt...

 

I did not use his name to support waffle. I used his memory to illustrate a change in behaviours. But i guess you didn't actually read all that waffle just you felt the need to comment.

 

Ignorance my flaturatory friend, is not a point of view.

 

Your beers getting warm

 

[Windbreaker]

I read your post very carefully, and took exception.

You on the other hand don't seem to read posts very carefully - where did I say anything about a pub. The beer is cold and it tastes just great.

 

What was that earlier comment you made about personal insults?

 

Over & out bru.

 

[GoLefty!!]

oK look, I know you need to have the last say but you did say "I'm off to..."

 

so that indicates leaving, and you're still here.

So whether in a pub or in your living room, you're still here...

 

whats with that?

 

have another go.

 

[Kupe]

Here are some law changes that have gone into effect this year in Melbourne. No the pedestrian did not fall over and hit his head he caught the full force of a 40+km bike rider.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/jail-threat-for-dangerous-cyclists-20090618-cird.html