what are good training wheels

[linnega]

Okay now that we have gotten way off the topic, what do you recommend for muddy race wheels Johan.  I was warned against XTR hubs, but frankly they have been excellent (don't tell the anti-Campag crowd).  The Mavic rims, not so great.  A little out of true from the first few rides.  This may be related to my 80kg frame and the fact that I went with DT revolution spokes.  So if  you were to recommend a replacement wheelset would you recommend:

1.  I keep the XTR hubs or replace them?

2.  What rims bearing in mind that I try to race, and that I choose to ride tubeless (currently converted Mavic 717 rims)?

3.  What spokes - I do prefer Sapim on my road bike? And how many - I have 32 on the current wheelset which seems adequate for a 26" wheel?

 

[linnega]

PS: When are going to come and present a wheelbuilding course in Durban??

[Johan Bornman]

Okay now that we have gotten way off the topic' date=' what do you recommend for muddy race wheels Johan.  I was warned against XTR hubs, but frankly they have been excellent (don't tell the anti-Campag crowd).  The Mavic rims, not so great.  A little out of true from the first few rides.  This may be related to my 80kg frame and the fact that I went with DT revolution spokes.  So if  you were to recommend a replacement wheelset would you recommend:
1.  I keep the XTR hubs or replace them?
2.  What rims bearing in mind that I try to race, and that I choose to ride tubeless (currently converted Mavic 717 rims)?
3.  What spokes - I do prefer Sapim on my road bike? And how many - I have 32 on the current wheelset which seems adequate for a 26" wheel?
[/quote']

 

The only consideration wheel-wide for riding in the mud is the quality of the hub and they don't come any better than XTR. However, don't submerge any hub in water. They're splash-proof, not waterproof. Period.

 

Some Mavic rims are good, some are poor, the 717s are single -eyelet rims I think and therefore poor. The wheels didn't go out of true because of the rims or the Revolution spokes (unless they cracked at the eyelets) but because of the build. Very vew people know how to build with Revolutions and even when you do, it is still a very, very hard thing to do.

 

1) Keep the hubs and replace them with same when they fail. Learn to recognise signs of water intrusion. Article on that in my deurmekaar website somewhere.

2) DRC MT-17

3) You have no choice with the brand of spoke on a MTB. The Sapim importer has a mistaken belief that MTB wheels generate a lot of heat and therefore only bring in straight-guage Sapim MTB -size spokes. You therefore have a choice of DT Champion or DT Revolution only. The latter is a better spoke for many reasons, but a dog to build with.  32-spokes in a MTB wheel is enough unless you're Pavarotti.

 

 

[Johan Bornman]

PS: When are going to come and present a wheelbuilding course in Durban??

 

Where's that?

[Icycling]

JB - recently you did a course in Cape Town which one of my employees attended. Was he correct in his understanding that their is more than 1 ideal way to build a rear wheel - I am not referring to how many crosses etc, but more on the direction of the spokes.

 

 

 

I am not sure how this can be? The outside spoke always need to be run back i.e. the opposite whey to which the wheel turns, with it apposing spoke in the same dircetion - these are the spokes doing the most work and although the flanges of a hub may only be about 3mm thick - this create a 6 mm wider "base" for the traingle. Which in turn make a far stonger wheel. Last week I consuilted the guys from Holland mechanics (these are the world leaders in the manufacturing machines for building wheels) on this issue and they agreed with me 100%.

 

 

 

I cannot understand why anyone would be worried about the rear derailleur going into the spokes. Bikes should be set up correctly and this argument holds no water especially with 10 speed bikes, if the hanger is not in line with the frame the gears will never perform at their best. Apprently this was the logic put forward why it does not really matter!

[Johan Bornman]

JB - recently you did a course in Cape Town which one of my employees attended. Was he correct in his understanding that their is more than 1 ideal way to build a rear wheel - I am not referring to how many crosses etc' date=' but more on the direction of the spokes.

I am not sure how this can be? The outside spoke always need to be run back i.e. the opposite whey to which the wheel turns, with it apposing spoke in the same dircetion - these are the spokes doing the most work and although the flanges of a hub may only be about 3mm thick - this create a 6 mm wider "base" for the traingle. Which in turn make a far stonger wheel. Last week I consuilted the guys from Holland mechanics (these are the world leaders in the manufacturing machines for building wheels) on this issue and they agreed with me 100%. ![/quote']

 

Peter, you say all this as if it is gospel. Have a look at page 67 onwards in The Bicycle Wheel. Your employee has a copy. Wheels are spoked in equal numbers. For every pulling spoke there is a pushing spoke (yes spokes can push) and for every inbound spoke there is an outbound spoke. It doesn't matter for the transmission of torque whether the pulling or pushing (leading or trailing) spokes are inbound or outbound or whether in fact they're symmetrical. Once you're starting to build a wheel where the clearance between jockey and spokes in gear 1 is low (any Campag) and the wheel has a reduced spoke count (below 28), you do get problems with spokes touching the bottom of the jockey cage when honking up a hill. This can be reduced by spoking differently to what you perceive to be optimal.

 

Yes, your employee heard correctly. The way I taught him to lace the wheel takes care of all these problems.

 

I cannot understand why anyone would be worried about the rear derailleur going into the spokes. Bikes should be set up correctly and this argument holds no water especially with 10 speed bikes' date=' if the hanger is not in line with the frame the gears will never perform at their best. Apprently this was the logic put forward why it does not really matter  [/quote']

 

Huh? You should be worried. If it happens, your RD and usually wheel, is ruined. And it does happen, even on correctly set up bikes.

 

There are no spokes doing more work than other spokes. They transmit torque, but since a trailing spoke pulls and a leading spoke pushes, the overall tension in the wheel remains constant and they all undergo equal changes in tension. Changes in tension is different for the right and left side of a rear wheel and for hub-braked front wheels, but only because hubs do a very poor job of transmitting torque from one side to the other.

 

You are also referring to the bracing pattern of the spokes. Since one spoke is inbound and the next outbound, the bracing angle is an average of the two angles. I suggest you read the book, especially Page 69.

 

In fact, since you're in the wheel business, get a copy and keep it beside your bed.

 

JB

[Jamm]

Johan,

 

You seem to fancy DRC rims for on/off road?

 

Where can one see these rims in the Western Cape?

[Guest Big H]

Okay now that we have gotten way off the topic' date=' what do you recommend for muddy race wheels Johan.  I was warned against XTR hubs, but frankly they have been excellent (don't tell the anti-Campag crowd).  The Mavic rims, not so great.  A little out of true from the first few rides.  This may be related to my 80kg frame and the fact that I went with DT revolution spokes.  So if  you were to recommend a replacement wheelset would you recommend:
1.  I keep the XTR hubs or replace them?
2.  What rims bearing in mind that I try to race, and that I choose to ride tubeless (currently converted Mavic 717 rims)?
3.  What spokes - I do prefer Sapim on my road bike? And how many - I have 32 on the current wheelset which seems adequate for a 26" wheel?
[/quote']

 

The only consideration wheel-wide for riding in the mud is the quality of the hub and they don't come any better than XTR. However, don't submerge any hub in water. They're splash-proof, not waterproof. Period.

 

Some Mavic rims are good, some are poor, the 717s are single -eyelet rims I think and therefore poor. The wheels didn't go out of true because of the rims or the Revolution spokes (unless they cracked at the eyelets) but because of the build. Very vew people know how to build with Revolutions and even when you do, it is still a very, very hard thing to do.

 

1) Keep the hubs and replace them with same when they fail. Learn to recognise signs of water intrusion. Article on that in my deurmekaar website somewhere.

2) DRC MT-17

3) You have no choice with the brand of spoke on a MTB. The Sapim importer has a mistaken belief that MTB wheels generate a lot of heat and therefore only bring in straight-guage Sapim MTB -size spokes. You therefore have a choice of DT Champion or DT Revolution only. The latter is a better spoke for many reasons, but a dog to build with.  32-spokes in a MTB wheel is enough unless you're Pavarotti.

 

 

 

Eendag as jy dalk so beroemd is soos Pavarotti mag jy dalk die geleentheid he om met hom te spot....... jy moes anycase gese het"unless you were Pavarotti"

[Bliksempie]

what are Pro Lite Como Alloy wheels like for training wheels. I don't have tons of money left (after buying my merlin baby) to spend. Is the price of R1500 a fair price for these including michelin tyres and 105 10 speed cassette?

 

What are the best value for money training wheels?

 

 

Goes by the name of Zipp 404 full carbon!!

 

Cant go wrong with that weelset!!

 

 

[Bliksempie]

Hulle gaan my nou mer     

 

 

 

[Johan Bornman]

Johan' date='

 

You seem to fancy DRC rims for on/off road?

 

Where can one see these rims in the Western Cape?

[/quote']

 

Jamm, I have no idea. I haven't been in a Cape Town bike shop in yonks. Ask your dealer to get you some. In anycase, you will more than likely be disappointed. They're pretty boring looking, a bit like Open Pros but with less stickers and flash.

 

Try the DRC website  www.drc.it, but do so at your own peril. The Italians can cook, make fast cars, and paint ceilings, but they can't do websites.

 

JB

[Ox_Wagon]

Ok, let?s try again?.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

 

The figures below show the interface between a spoke and high end aero rim.  In figure A the spoke is under tension in other words pulling. Everything is fine in that the spoke is pulling the internal nipple in to the rim. In figure B the spoke is in compression or pushing (standing).  In this case the nipple is pushed away from the rim wall. So the only way it would be able to support weight is if it hits the underside of the face that the tubbies are glued to. Not good.

 

In short, all spokes, due to pre-tensioning, should always be under tension.  The amount of tension varies as the wheel rotate with the top spokes experiencing a higher tension than the bottom spokes.  Spokes should preferably never see a compression (pushing) loading as they will simply flop around loosely.        

[GoLefty!!]

JB - recently you did a course in Cape Town which one of my employees attended. Was he correct in his understanding that their is more than 1 ideal way to build a rear wheel - I am not referring to how many crosses etc' date=' but more on the direction of the spokes.

I am not sure how this can be? The outside spoke always need to be run back i.e. the opposite whey to which the wheel turns, with it apposing spoke in the same dircetion - these are the spokes doing the most work and although the flanges of a hub may only be about 3mm thick - this create a 6 mm wider "base" for the traingle. Which in turn make a far stonger wheel. Last week I consuilted the guys from Holland mechanics (these are the world leaders in the manufacturing machines for building wheels) on this issue and they agreed with me 100%.

I cannot understand why anyone would be worried about the rear derailleur going into the spokes. Bikes should be set up correctly and this argument holds no water especially with 10 speed bikes, if the hanger is not in line with the frame the gears will never perform at their best. Apprently this was the logic put forward why it does not really matter![/quote']

 

Peter please do not use engineering principals when conversing with Jihen  Bhornam...

It will only end in high school physics and your higher education was merely a waste of of your hard earned money..

[Icycling]

GoLefty - I am taking that as compliment - note I stoped on this topic awhile back. I figured it would become a wast of time!

[GoLefty!!]

You figured correctly. It will degrade into a pedantic tongue twisting twist and twirly debate bordering on semantics.

We agree that rims hang from the top spokes and not stand on the bottom spokes, that is enough.

That PBO spokes are a novel idea is lost on the ludites of this world.

Afterall, ludites would love us all to be conformist to their simplified view of the world and choices. That way they won't feel so alone.

 

Me I like innovative idea's. It gives me things to think about during the generally mindless activity called Cycling

[TitusTi]

This looks like a fun fight I missed! Bugger! Yo Lefty, what's up, why didn't you come to Ceres, was just like last year except harder and cooler!