Need some help on spokes

[steven]

Without using a Tensionmetre when building a proper wheel you are wasting your time and money. Anybody building without it is lost in a wilderness..

 

sm

[Paddy]

Windbreaker,  that is probably why Big H won the wooden spoon award 2006

[Johan Bornman]

Went on a ride yesterday and at the top of the 5km hill i broke a spoke....it tore out of the nipple within the rim.  I ride with the Shimano WRH 550 wheelset.  I know they are not the best but I was wondering what the problem could be as this is the second time I have lost a spoke.  I am 1.86m tall and weight is about 85kg.  Could weight be the problem ??

 

If you could perhaps take a photo of the affected area and post that here, I'll attempt to get to the root of the problem.

 

I don't quite understand your description. You say you broke a spoke and it tore out of the rim.  I can't quite visualise what it looks like.

 

 

[Johan Bornman]

Without using a Tensionmetre when building a proper wheel you are wasting your time and money. Anybody building without it is lost in a wilderness..

 

sm

 

Steven, you present this as if it is fact. Perhaps you want to be more explicit and tell us why anyone who builds without a tensiometer is lost in the wilderness, as you put it?

 

 

[steven]

Building a wheel by simply just tensioning a wheel by hand and truing it is not the real way.A tensionmetre lets you take control of the maximum and proper tension on every spoke, there is no other way of doing a good wheel .Sure you can get away without it but long term its the best way forward.I have been in the business for nearly 25 years and have seen what happens with all sorts of wheels.No tensionmetre = lots of issues such as spokes breacking, nipples pulled out of rims, eyelets cracking on rims, hub flanges breacking off due to improper tensions etc etc.Invest in a tensionmetre and you will have 100 % success rate.

DT Swiss offer a book written by Gert Schreiner(Not  sure of spelling) and its very informative

 

r gds sm www.coolheat.co.za

 

 

[Johan Bornman]

Building a wheel by simply just tensioning a wheel by hand and truing it is not the real way.A tensionmetre lets you take control of the maximum and proper tension on every spoke' date=' there is no other way of doing a good wheel .Sure you can get away without it but long term its the best way forward.I have been in the business for nearly 25 years and have seen what happens with all sorts of wheels.No tensionmetre = lots of issues such as spokes breacking, nipples pulled out of rims, eyelets cracking on rims, hub flanges breacking off due to improper tensions etc etc.Invest in a tensionmetre and you will have 100 % success rate.

DT Swiss offer a book written by Gert Schreiner(Not  sure of spelling) and its very informative

 

r gds sm www.coolheat.co.za

  

[/quote']

 

Make that Gerd "Schraner" and "tensiometer" and "breaking".

 

All wheels are tensioned and trued by hand, unless it is done on one of the automated machines only used on cheap bikes. A tensionmeter is not used for tensioning or truing. A spoke spanner does that job.

 

I don't understand how a deflection meter helps you "take control of the maximum and proper tension of every spoke." There is no way that a nipple can be tensioned enough to break a spoke. The nipple will break or the rim will buckle long before you reached the yield point on any spoke, even 1.5mm ones.

 

I don't understand why it is OK in the short term (to build without one of those gadgets), but for the long term, a tensiometer is better? Please explain.

 

Being in the business for X years is different from learning something. I know construction workers who have been pouring concrete on construction sites for 30 years, yet they know nothing about pre-stressed structures. I know lots of veterans in this industry who have learnt very little other than re-inforce their old prejudices day after day. Lets stick to how a tensiometer builds better wheels.

 

I don't see the correlation between tensionmeter and breaking spokes. Please explain that one to us.

 

Cracks around eyelets develop from a) fatigue and b) hard anodising c) lack of sockets. Tensiometers don't come in here.

 

I don't know how a tangentially-laced hub flange can break off from too much tension in a spoke. As I said, you'll warp the wheel or gall the nipples before anything else.

 

I don't see the correlation with tensiometer and 100% success rate. That's not my experience from lots of builders who swear by their little tensiometers. Very few of them understand how and why spokes break.

 

As for Gerd Schraner, I wish DT Swiss would drop him. He's an anacromism that's purely tolerated by DT as recognition to his loyalty to the company. His book is littered with flaws and he perpetuates so many myths it should be embarassing to DT Swiss. There are better books on the market - books that don't use meaninless terms like "stand" and dont confuse torsion with tension and don't advocate tieing and soldering and dont talk about "damping" and "responsiveness" and don't advocate the use of washers at the hub flange.

 

Rim and hub manufacuters don't publish data of the maximum tension tension their products can handle, so where does the tensiometer come in. How does the builder know what the maximum allowable tension is?

 

The only role I see for a tensiometer is when you have a production line of similar wheels and the maximum values have been empirically attained and you want to build all the wheels consistently. Otherwise, it just makes a very ugly but expensive paperweight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[steven]

Shimano, DT, Mavic offer a comprehensive list of spoke tensions for their wheels. Not sure where you get your info from but anycase everyone to his own opinion.Suggest you get in touch with Doug Patterson whom can explain more to you . As mentioned we see more issues  with nipples pulling out of rims,flanges breaking,etc etc than most.

 

rgds sm

[Windbreaker]

 

Suggest you get in touch with Doug Patterson whom can explain more to you

 

rgds sm

Rather than leave those of us that are interested hanging it might be an idea to get Doug to respond to JB's questions???

 

[Johan Bornman]

Shimano' date=' DT, Mavic offer a comprehensive list of spoke tensions for their wheels. Not sure where you get your info from but anycase everyone to his own opinion.Suggest you get in touch with Doug Patterson whom can explain more to you . As mentioned we see more issues  with nipples pulling out of rims,flanges breaking,etc etc than most.

 

rgds sm

[/quote']

 

Steve, you are skirting my questions. You made a far-reaching statement and I took time and effort in an attempt to analyse it. Leaving the answer to someone else doesn't cut it in the Tech forum.

 

Johan Bornman2007-12-18 01:23:04

[casspir]

Steven,

Yes I agree with Windbreaker. 

Get Doug Patterson to join the forum and explain to all of us.  We are all very interested. 

Regards,

Kinnie

 

 

[greatwhite]

Shimano' date=' DT, Mavic offer a comprehensive list of spoke tensions for their wheels. Not sure where you get your info from but anycase everyone to his own opinion.Suggest you get in touch with Doug Patterson whom can explain more to you . As mentioned we see more issues  with nipples pulling out of rims,flanges breaking,etc etc than most.

 

rgds sm

[/quote']

 

Steven: do you have URLs for these lists of tensions for the various wheels and could you post them here (or maybe .pdf files). I'm sure many people would very interested to see them. I'd certainly find that info useful - especially the DT and mavic stuff.

 

I couldn't find anything on spoke tension on DTs site even though I use their spoke calculator. I did find this - http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/fix/?id=tm_1

 

Brand or Manufacturer	Model	Front wheel NOTE: measure rotor side if a disc hub	Rear Wheel- right side (chain side)
Bontrager	Race X Lite Aero Carbon	91 to 136 Kgf	122 to 181 Kgf
	Race X Lite Aero	91 to 136 Kgf	122 to 181 Kgf
	Race X Lite	94 to 136 Kgf	122 to 181 Kgf
	Race Lite Tandem	100 to 159 Kgf	100 to 150 Kgf
	Race Lite	77 to 127 Kgf	86 to 159 Kgf
	Race X Lite ATB	50 to 132 Kgf	not availabe
	Race Lite 29-inch ATB , Race Lite 29-inch Disc Compatible 2003 Race Lite Tubeless, Race Lite Tubeless Disc Specific Race Tubeless, Race 29-inch Disc Compatible Select Disc Compatible, Select ATB Select Hybrid, Select road	50 to 132 Kgf	50 to 132 Kgf
	Superstock 29-inch Disc Compatible	54 to 132 Kgf	54 to 132 Kgf
	Superstock Disc Compatible	54 to 132 Kgf	54 to 132 Kgf
	Superstock	54 to 132 Kgf	54 to 132 Kgf
Campagnolo	Eurus Wheel	60-80 Kgf	95-115 Kgf
Campagnolo	Neutron Wheel	60-70 Kgf	120 to 140 Kgf
Campagnolo	Hyperon Wheel	60-80 Kgf	110 to 130 Kgf
Campagnolo	Proton Wheel	50 to 70 Kgf	120 to 140 Kgf
Campagnolo	Scirocco Wheel	60 to 80 Kgf	85 to 105 Kgf
Campagnolo	Zonda	tangent spokes 60 to 80 Kgf radial spoke 75 to 95 Kgf	90 to 110 Kgf
Mavic	Crossride? Ceramic	70 - 90 Kgf	70 - 90 Kgf
	Classics SSC?	80 - 100 Kgf	80 - 100 Kgf
	Crossroc? UST?, Crossroc UST? Disc	90 - 120 Kgf	90 - 120 Kgf
	Cosmic? Elite	110 to 140 kgf	110 to 140 kgf
	Crossmax? UST? Disc	110- 140 Kgf	120 - 150 Kgf
	Ksyrium? Elite	140-160 Kgf	140-160 Kgf
	Crossmax UST	70 - 90 kgf	110 - 130 kgf Cosmic? Carbone SSC?
	Ksyrium SSC	90 - 110 kgf	130 - 150 kg
	Crossmax? UST	100 - 120 kgf	130 - 150 kg
	Crossride?	70 - 90 kgf	70 - 90 kgf
	Cosmic? Carbone SSC?	---	130-150 kgf
	Cosmos?	---	100-120 kgf
Shimano Wheels	WH-M959, WH-M575, WH-M540	98 to 118 Kgf	105 to 128 Kgf
	WH-M7701 (also for carbon)	105 to 160 Kgf	98 to 140 Kgf

 

One observation I'll make about the above is that the deviation in spoke tension range is huge on some of these wheels.

 

Back to the topic, though: A nipple that has pulled through the rim is usually a fatigue failure - I've lost plenty rims from that, usually rear. To my mind, higher spoke tension would predicate more rapid fatigue failure of the rim assuming other factors remain the same

 

[ZeroPlay]

 

 

Building a wheel by simply just tensioning a wheel by hand and truing it is not the real way.A tensionmetre lets you take control of the maximum and proper tension on every spoke' date=' there is no other way of doing a good wheel .Sure you can get away without it but long term its the best way forward.I have been in the business for nearly 25 years and have seen what happens with all sorts of wheels.No tensionmetre = lots of issues such as spokes breacking, nipples pulled out of rims, eyelets cracking on rims, hub flanges breacking off due to improper tensions etc etc.Invest in a tensionmetre and you will have 100 % success rate.

DT Swiss offer a book written by Gert Schreiner(Not  sure of spelling) and its very informative

[/quote']

 

I have that book.  Gerd doesn't list a spoke tension meter as an essential.  He provides a method of achieving close to ideal spoke tension by increasing tension until it is clearly too high (the rim is no longer reacting predictably to tension increases to a particular spoke) and then backing off the tension by a fraction of a turn ( I forget what the fraction is).

 

In my experience, it's not possible to get the tension too high with aluminium spoke nipples (they just get rounded long before that) and you'll have to try pretty hard with brass nipples too (probably have to grease threads and area where to nipple contacts rim to get tension too high).

 

No doubt that a spoke tension meter can only help, though.  I would love to have one.  How about sponsoring me one and I'll write a nice review on the hub

ZeroPlay2007-12-18 03:01:43

[ZeroPlay]

 

Went on a ride yesterday and at the top of the 5km hill i broke a spoke....it tore out of the nipple within the rim.  I ride with the Shimano WRH 550 wheelset.  I know they are not the best but I was wondering what the problem could be as this is the second time I have lost a spoke.  I am 1.86m tall and weight is about 85kg.  Could weight be the problem ??

 

If the spoke "tore out of the nipple"' date=' one would expect that spoke tension was too high.  I've never heard of spoke tension high enough to do that, though.

 

What doesn't make sense then is:

 

 

sorry....its the 24 spoke rim.....keep on snapping the spoke on the non drive side of the rear wheel

 

Non-drive side spokes usually have significantly less tension than drive side ones, to keep the dishing of the wheel correct (i.e. centre the rim on the hub axle (the body + the cassette) rather than the hub body.  If you broke a non-drive side spoke, it suggests that too high spoke tension was not the problem.

 

It could be that the spoke nipple was damaged (cracked or a stripped thread to start with).

 

The only spoke failure I've seen on non-drive side spokes was due to the spoke tension being far too low.  This resulted in the spoke getting tensioned and detentioned (going slack) every wheel revolution (I'm guessing - I have no proof) and resulted in the spoke snapping somewhere between the nipple and about half way down the spoke.  I thought this was very surprising at the time, since I'd only ever seen spokes snap at the elbow bend before.

 

[Johan Bornman]

My favourite Gerd Schranerism (The Art of Wheelbuilding) is this one. Here he advocates that one reason spokes break is because they move up and down in the hub's spoke holes. He talks of some terrible "whiplash" and other ominious stresses that the spokes undergo during this process.

 

More amazing is his cure - washers on the side. How that will stop spokes whiplashing themselves into oblivions is not made clear.

 

The only wheels I've seen that do this are ones on some famous-name bicycles sold in hypermarkets, intended for the kiddies market where they can inflict maximum damage on toddlers.

 

Any wheel with even the smallest bit of tension will not have any movement at the spoke holes in the manner Schraner describes here.

 

[greatwhite]

Have to go with you an this one Johan, no spoke in a wheel should ever get to a point that it is completely untensioned i.e. loose.

 

How the washer would help this situation is not apparent. Also adding the extra thickness of the washer into the equation will mean you have to deform the spoke to go 'around' the extra thickness, damaging the spoke in the place it is already most likely to fail.

 

[mbaymike]

thanks for all the input guys....been really helpful.  I have also ordered the following for me.......easton circuit wheelset