DH vs AM vs Enduro vs Freeride etc??? Help??

[sakkiebomskok]

 

 

 

You sure Sakkie?

 

Less than DH for sure, but more than the aforementioned bikes.

 

I figured that it would be less seeing that bikes that came out as "freeride" bikes had about 150mm travel. But you could be right for sure. Im fairly new to biking.

[Jester6]

So if I have this right I should look into an Enduro/Freeride bike with around 160mm of travel? And I should be good for pretty much everything? Within reason obviously,

Wheelsize a factor?

[popcorn_skollie]

I'm also still new to all this and still learning ALOT.

I think that one of the most important things I've learned is that the amount of travel a bike has doesn't necessarily limit it to a certain mountain biking discipline only. Not to mention that bikes can be changed.

I've seen enduro bikes with dual crown forks and downhill bikes with single crown forks. I've seen the exact same frame used by two completely different bikes which have been setup by different components and intended for different uses.

 

Eg. The brass sx was a bike aimed at aspiring freeriders. But it only had 100mm of travel in the front and rear.

There are many xc bikes that have more travel than that.

 

Frame material. The thought of a carbon downhill bike scares me.

Bike geometry is an equally if not more important aspect.

The distance between wheels determine the balance you want between speed and handling.

Wheel size (jeez lets not get into that)

Head angle. Steeper head angles are usually found on downhill bikes so you don't go flying over the bars.

But when you change the travel of the fork infront. Suddenly the head angle is also changed.

 

Axle size and spoke count. Your average xc bike might have 32 spoke wheels and narrow qr axles.

A downhill bike wheel set will probably have 36 spoke wheels and a thick 20mm through axle infront.

But you could have an xc bike and slap on a fork with more travel and a thicker axle and suddenly the bike is more enduro/am worthy.

 

The most important thing to consider when choosing a bike is yourself, the rider.

What do you want out of the bike and what sort of riding do you find the most fun.

What do you weigh for example?

 

A downhiller that weighs 60kg certainly doesn't need 200mm of travel.

Unless they're dropping you onto the slopes from a helicopter.

Whereas an xc rider who often goes on long rides should probably fork out on all the latest plastic components. Find the balance meant for you.

 

Then once you're grasped a somewhat general understanding of the jargon being thrown around.

Its important that you try and see through all the labels and marketing ploys and actually look at the bikes itself. I still believe that words like 'enduro' are elusive for a reason. Although i generally associate it with all mountain style riding. I still have no idea what it means.

I do however know that if you take an all mountain helmet. Make it black and slap on the word 'enduro' then the price would double.

 

Edit: If I'm talking *** someone who knows better should probably correct me. Like I said. Still learning

Edited August 28, 2014 by popcorn_skollie

[patches]

ok, just thought I'd try help out a bit here...

 

Instalment 1...

 

Slopestyle:

 

These bikes can have anything from 80mm - 170mm rear travel. The discipline is about hitting big jumps, relatively fast on a descending course. These bikes will generally have very low seats with slammed seat posts, and quite aggressive geometry to make them easy to trick.

 

Often bikes with the letters SS or SX in the name are designed as slopestyle bikes. Like the Brass SX mentioned above, and the Giant Reign SX.

 

Here's a few examples of slopestyle bikes.

 

http://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/users/109/photos/61711/s780_joy_v8a9303.jpg?1376818121

 

Brandon Semenuk's Trek Ticket SS. A short travel type of slope style bike, but don't let "just 100mm" fool you. In the right hands these bikes go big! Note the rear shifter on the down tube, coiled rear brake hose, and absence of a front brake. This makes it easier for riders to do tricks like tail whips and barspins.

 

http://singletrackworld.com/files/2009/09/new-ss.jpg

 

On the other end of the Slopestyle Scale we have bikes like the Intense SS2 (Slopestyle 2). These generally run approx 170mm rear travel and 160-180mm front travel. They're a little closer to Freeride bikes (to be explained further on), but as one can see a steepish head angle and short wheelbase makes this bike more about tricking than hucking.

 

http://fstatic1.mtb-news.de/f/zm/6q/zm6q9xgn6kf2/large_0560_nukeproof_rook.jpg?0

 

And here in the middle we have bikes like the Nukeproof Rook. 105mm rear travel, and can run from a 100mm to a 160mm fork, making the bike rather versatile.

 

And finally... the type of riding...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3M11hjrmWU

 

So there ends instalment 1.

Edited August 28, 2014 by patches

[patches]

Instalment 2

 

Downhill:

 

With rear travel ranging from 170mm (for custom World Champs rigs like Sam Hill and Stevie Smith sported), to approx. 250mm on the iconic Santa Cruz V10, in the true sense a DH bike and the term downhill is talking about a form of racing.

 

Most downhill bikes run with front and rear travel around 200mm and head angles around 63deg. These bikes are built for stability at speed over rough terrain.

 

Whilst one may think a riders weight might impact the travel required, remember that the travel on a DH bike is more to smooth out bumpy terrain to maintain speed, than it is to absorb big drops. So yes, a 60kg rider would still need 200mm travel. They would just run lighter spring/air settings in their fork and rear shock.

 

Lets look at some of the bikes:

 

http://www.santacruzbicycles.com/files/frame-thumbs/v10-profile.jpg

 

For the rich and famous, the Santa Cruz V10, running 10" (254mm) rear travel, and a 203mm front travel.

 

http://p.vitalmtb.com/photos/users/2/photos/61336/s780_SS_n3x1176.jpg?1376270663

 

Stevie Smith giving his Devinci Wilson the thumbs up.

 

Note that the above bikes are both carbon. The majority of DH bikes are still Aluminium, but carbon has proven itself on the world circuit over and over again. So no need to fear the plastic bike... only the price, if its a good one.

 

And the riding...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=w9iJb0XB3kM

 

Sam Hill's winning run at the Meribel, France World Cup this past weekend. Look a the terrain and you'll see that his 200mm travel is put to good use absorbing bumps and keeping him going lightning fast.

 

 

Just some perspective on the downhill racing scene

[patches]

Instalment 3

 

Freeride:

 

The modern free ride bike has can have from 170 - 200mm rear travel. Although 180mm (or 7") is considered the 'standard free ride bike'. Head angles sit similar, if not slightly steeper, than DH bikes. Wheelbases are shorter than DH bikes. And Freeride bikes are built to be bombproof, whereas DH bikes try be strong and light.

 

The riding itself is somewhat of a grey area. It generally involved going down steep, gnarly terrain, big drops, and insane jumps. Unlike downhill, speed isn't the be-all and end-all with free ride. It's almost more about survival and riding stuff where people look and say "I won't even walk down that".

 

Yes it has a big overlap with the downhill and slope style disciplines. Downhill in that the terrain is challenging. Rocks. Roots, etc. Slopestyle in that free riders generally try add some tricks and flair to their game. Hence why it's commonplace to find free ride bikes sporting single crown forks for X-ups and other tricks.

 

So the bikes...

 

http://www.morewoodbikes.com/images/bikes/kalula/morewood-kalula-built-1600x1200.jpg

 

Handbuilt in PMB, South Africa, we have the Morewood Kalula. 180mm front and rear travel. But I have seen these run with 200mm double crown forks and used to race downhill.

 

And the riding

 

 

Although rampage is a big mountain/mountain style competition with 4 judging criteria, it illustrates well the sort of crazy challenges that free riders throw themselves at.

 

Somewhere between the free rider and the downhill racer we have the 'free racer'. This term is generally used to denote riders on DH/FR bikes who can shred at high speed, but also add style and try go big. These guys often race on their local and international DH circuits, but spend a lot of time trying new big things in bike parks.

 

http://www.pinkbike.com/news/video-remy-metailler-burns-the-whistler-bike-park-2014.html

 

Remy Metailler burning up whistler

[Jester6]

Wow thanks for the awesome responses and explanations Patches, I think I have a much better idea now of what's what and where I should start, have a lot to watch and investigate now!

[Jester6]

I'm also still new to all this and still learning ALOT.

I think that one of the most important things I've learned is that the amount of travel a bike has doesn't necessarily limit it to a certain mountain biking discipline only. Not to mention that bikes can be changed.

I've seen enduro bikes with dual crown forks and downhill bikes with single crown forks. I've seen the exact same frame used by two completely different bikes which have been setup by different components and intended for different uses.

 

Eg. The brass sx was a bike aimed at aspiring freeriders. But it only had 100mm of travel in the front and rear.

There are many xc bikes that have more travel than that.

 

Frame material. The thought of a carbon downhill bike scares me.

Bike geometry is an equally if not more important aspect.

The distance between wheels determine the balance you want between speed and handling.

Wheel size (jeez lets not get into that)

Head angle. Steeper head angles are usually found on downhill bikes so you don't go flying over the bars.

But when you change the travel of the fork infront. Suddenly the head angle is also changed.

 

Axle size and spoke count. Your average xc bike might have 32 spoke wheels and narrow qr axles.

A downhill bike wheel set will probably have 36 spoke wheels and a thick 20mm through axle infront.

But you could have an xc bike and slap on a fork with more travel and a thicker axle and suddenly the bike is more enduro/am worthy.

 

The most important thing to consider when choosing a bike is yourself, the rider.

What do you want out of the bike and what sort of riding do you find the most fun.

What do you weigh for example?

 

A downhiller that weighs 60kg certainly doesn't need 200mm of travel.

Unless they're dropping you onto the slopes from a helicopter.

Whereas an xc rider who often goes on long rides should probably fork out on all the latest plastic components. Find the balance meant for you.

 

Then once you're grasped a somewhat general understanding of the jargon being thrown around.

Its important that you try and see through all the labels and marketing ploys and actually look at the bikes itself. I still believe that words like 'enduro' are elusive for a reason. Although i generally associate it with all mountain style riding. I still have no idea what it means.

I do however know that if you take an all mountain helmet. Make it black and slap on the word 'enduro' then the price would double.

 

Edit: If I'm talking *** someone who knows better should probably correct me. Like I said. Still learning

Ok so it's a tad more complicated than I thought

But what you say makes sense, not really a one size fits all kind of scenario..

 

I must admit the geometry side of things is something I need to invest some time in, because people mention head angle etc and I have no idea what it actually means, or the actual effect of changing it, so I shall do some studying on that and the general jargon so I have a better grip of everything.

You mention the wheelbase affecting speed and handling, I'm assuming a shorter wheelbase would handle better and a longer lean more towards speed?

 

All the marketing stuff is what got to me, I had a look at a few bikes and couldn't really tell the difference, as they all kind of seemed the same to me, irrespective of the style label, then again until reading your post and patches the main difference for me was simply hardtail or dual suspension.

 

Can hardtails be used for any of the more hectic stuff like this?

[Jester6]

Instalment 3

 

Freeride:

 

The modern free ride bike has can have from 170 - 200mm rear travel. Although 180mm (or 7") is considered the 'standard free ride bike'. Head angles sit similar, if not slightly steeper, than DH bikes. Wheelbases are shorter than DH bikes. And Freeride bikes are built to be bombproof, whereas DH bikes try be strong and light.

 

The riding itself is somewhat of a grey area. It generally involved going down steep, gnarly terrain, big drops, and insane jumps. Unlike downhill, speed isn't the be-all and end-all with free ride. It's almost more about survival and riding stuff where people look and say "I won't even walk down that".

 

Yes it has a big overlap with the downhill and slope style disciplines. Downhill in that the terrain is challenging. Rocks. Roots, etc. Slopestyle in that free riders generally try add some tricks and flair to their game. Hence why it's commonplace to find free ride bikes sporting single crown forks for X-ups and other tricks.

 

So the bikes...

 

http://www.morewoodbikes.com/images/bikes/kalula/morewood-kalula-built-1600x1200.jpg

 

Handbuilt in PMB, South Africa, we have the Morewood Kalula. 180mm front and rear travel. But I have seen these run with 200mm double crown forks and used to race downhill.

 

And the riding

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv_DRJZZ2qI

 

Although rampage is a big mountain/mountain style competition with 4 judging criteria, it illustrates well the sort of crazy challenges that free riders throw themselves at.

 

Somewhere between the free rider and the downhill racer we have the 'free racer'. This term is generally used to denote riders on DH/FR bikes who can shred at high speed, but also add style and try go big. These guys often race on their local and international DH circuits, but spend a lot of time trying new big things in bike parks.

 

http://www.pinkbike....-park-2014.html

 

Remy Metailler burning up whistler

 

Thanks again for the great breakdowns! I must admit I like the sound of "bombproof"

I was just wondering if there is any room for Hardtails in disciplines like this? I spotted a few threads where guy's have been posting "All Mountain" hardtails, or do I have my wires crossed and that is something totally different?

 

Forgive the possibly daft questions, total noob at this

[mada3400]

[popcorn_skollie]

:clap: :clap: :clap:

thanks for all the time and effort man i thoroughly enjoyed reading all that.

always lekker to learn

 

could installment 4 please be on 'enduro' ?

Edited August 28, 2014 by popcorn_skollie

[patches]

Installment 4:

 

All Mountain/Enduro:

 

All Mountain bikes generally have 140 - 170mm or front and rear travel. 150 - 160mm seems to be the sweetspot that most manufacturers use to design their AM frames. It's the area between Trail and Freeride. Head angles on the AM bikes nowadays are around 66/67 degrees. AM bikes can be hardtails too. There are quite a few of these out there. They will have similar geometry to the full suss bikes, and run equivalent travel forks.

 

The riding is generally gravity orientated, and pretty natural. Singletrack. Not too manicured. It does however involve a quite a bit of climbing. Riders pedal to the tops of the trails they want to hit. Although for the most part the trails aren't as steep and gnarly as a DH track, they can have those elements to them. In these cases the riders just won't hit them flat out like they would if they had that 200mm of forgiveness.

 

Enduro, in its simplest terms is just the racing form of All Mountain riding. The format involves stages which mostly consist of a downward gradient. These are timed. The catch though is that a rider is required to pedal themselves to the start of these stages. No shuttles or uplift like in DH. Fortunately these climbs are not timed. A rider is just given a window period in which they need to report to the start of the next stage. The times from each stage are added up and that determines the overall winner.

 

As for what bikes are available... there are hundreds! This must be the fastest growing segment in MTB at the moment. The EWS (Enduro World Series) has quite a following. Just in the last 2 years I have noticed a huge increase in the number of AM/Enduro bikes on the trails during my visits to the French and Swiss Alps. Trails which originally were built for downhillers and free riders.

 

Due to geometry and advances in suspension, a well designed, current AM bike is in many aspects more capable on the steep rough stuff than a downhill bike from 7+ years ago. The bikes in general are just so versatile, hence why many here have recommended them as the way to go. Sure you won't win any XC or DH races on one, but they're a nice happy middle ground

 

http://www.yt-industries.com/shop/media/images/products/en/trail/capra_cf_pro/gallery/capra_pro1_detail1_filled.jpg

 

The YT Capra. With 170mm travel front and rear. A dropper post. A 10 - 42T cassette. And weighing in under 13kg... this beauty can go just about anywhere.

 

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8421/7808493432_b85338f882_c.jpg

 

The Cotic BFe. One of the more popular AM hardtails. You'll note the significantly slacker head angle compared to that of an XC bike.

 

As for an example of the riding...

 

here's the 2013 Enduro World Champion, and Megavalanche winner, Jerome Clementz

 

[popcorn_skollie]

thanks man. something like this should really be stickied for all the new hubbers.

(and probably some of the veterans too )

These days thehub just seems to be more about thehub than about riding bicycles.

kudos for the awesome effort

 

Now if you'll excuse me. I have to print 4 installments

[Peach.]

Patches, I hope you get paid for all the effort you put into your replies

[Peach.]

Jester, from the sounds of it I would suggest you look at a 26" or 27.5" (there really isn't much difference)

120-150mm travel, I ride 120 back 150 front, Enough to play around with but not too much so you can't peddle.

[braailegend]

You cant be a "real" freerider without a hardtail DJ/Street bike to perfect your skill on .... Aka Sienjougat without breaking expensive gears/handlebars/brakes/rims... and take the brakes off time to time, to remember why you have them:

 

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z96/_Olliw_/IMG_6321-1.jpg

 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7NEzKd7SYt4/TWUYTnk6jnI/AAAAAAAAAI4/oOhCivnnCEE/s1600/IMG_1323.JPG