Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 Look, Tim. It's well known that a wider bar opens up the chest and gives you greater control of the bike when things get fast and twisty. It's also now considered as more important to have a short and wide bar setup than a long and narrow setup, in order to facilitate handling and weight distribution. An ergofit is VERY important for getting your saddle in the right position for pedalling, and that will remain constant over every single type of bike apart from a DH / Freeride bike. Saddle positioning (height / fore-aft) should not be changed from the normal height above and behind the BB when considering your positioning for pedalling in the saddle. End of story. If you do, then you're messing with your positioning on the bike and you will most likely damage something. In terms of bar / stem positioning, IMO and in the opinion of a growing amount of reviewers, testers and manufacturers, we should be (and have been) moving to a wider bar / shorter stem combination due to the effects it has on the bike's handling at speed and the way your weight is positioned behind the axle - which is critical for high speed stability. This guy is also experiencing problems in fit at the moment - which would be partially fixed by moving to a wider bar, and from there he can determine the proper stem length, through going for a PROPER ergofit, with someone who isn't stuck in the 90's and has a collection of dildo-sized stems. He's at a 100mm stem at the moment, which is excessive for MTB. Fine for a road bike, but IMO (and again, in the opinion of an ever increasing amount of manufacturers, reviewers and testers) not okay at all for an MTB. His current bar is 720mm. If he's having to cant his hands in and roll his wrists in order to fit, and feels as if he's very unstable, then a wider bar is at least part of the answer. I've got a question for you - have you tried a short stem and wide bar combo on your Scalpel yet, and given it a chance?
brucem76 Posted February 3, 2015 Author Posted February 3, 2015 Thanks guys, this is all really valuable. I'll document my progress on the matter. Let's not pretend the potential variables and solutions here aren't vast and complex. Just some of the possible parts of the solution could be: (can you think of others?) - seat up/down/forward/back/tilt - stem up/down/longer/shorter - bars wider/narrower/flat/riser/sweep - angle of the brakes on the bars - wrist/back/neck weakness and posture - core muscle use/strength - downhill/general technique - amount of time in saddle/out of saddle I am sure there are multiple adjustments that will make the numbness go away. The best solution is the one with the most positive side effects and least negative side effects according to personal priorities - do I want to be more maneuverable? Faster on uphills or downhills? Able to cover distances or handle technical stints? Is the climb or the flat or the down where I want to be at my best? And this was meant to be a casual, de-stressing hobby
NicoBoshoff Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 . He's at a 100mm stem at the moment, which is excessive for MTB. ?A friend of mine struggled with lower back issues for years until he went to a 100mm stem. He's fine now. As for bar width, Pottie has gone back to narrower bars and he says he's riding like his old self again. Careful of one rule for everyone approaches.
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 A friend of mine struggled with lower back issues for years until he went to a 100mm stem. He's fine now. As for bar width, Pottie has gone back to narrower bars and he says he's riding like his old self again. Careful of one rule for everyone approaches.true, but if he's on a 100mm stem then arguably the bike is too small for him... As for pottie, yeah. But he's a short arse! There are variances to be taken into consideration as well, but the wider bar shorter stem movement is still there for a good reason. Plus I doubt he's gone to a 650mm bar and lengthened his stem to 100mm...
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 Also - I wouldn't recommend a wide bar for everyone - it's a relative thing. It's also dependent on how wide you can comfortably splay your arms and grip, so for someone built like a 5f5 ethiopian track runner I wouldn't recommend an 800 mm bar but I would recommend a stem of between 30 and 60mm depending on his reach. Likewise for a 1.95m person I wouldn't recommend a 100mm stem and 720mm bar.
GoLefty!! Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 Look, Tim. It's well known that a wider bar opens up the chest and gives you greater control of the bike when things get fast and twisty. It's also now considered as more important to have a short and wide bar setup than a long and narrow setup, in order to facilitate handling and weight distribution. Wide bars have got F'all to do with better breathing. its all about leverage. Maybe you consider it more important but no pro rider considers bar width more important than the geometry of their bike An ergofit is VERY important for getting your saddle in the right position for pedalling, and that will remain constant over every single type of bike apart from a DH / Freeride bike. Saddle positioning (height / fore-aft) should not be changed from the normal height above and behind the BB when considering your positioning for pedalling in the saddle. End of story. If you do, then you're messing with your positioning on the bike and you will most likely damage something. actually your reach determines how comfortable it is to pedalout of the saddle as well and that also needs to be considered. In terms of bar / stem positioning, IMO and in the opinion of a growing amount of reviewers, testers and manufacturers, we should be (and have been) moving to a wider bar / shorter stem combination due to the effects it has on the bike's handling at speed and the way your weight is positioned behind the axle - which is critical for high speed stability. I really don't care what reviewers or testers have to say because their aim is to sell biking kit. It my aim to find what works for me and to understand how my body relates to the bike. Manufacturers fit widers bars and shorter stems to counter the short trail and slacker head angles their new 29ers have. Not all bikes are created equal in this regard and the advice does nto hold true for every brand nor every rider on any given bike. This guy is also experiencing problems in fit at the moment - which would be partially fixed by moving to a wider bar, and from there he can determine the proper stem length, through going for a PROPER ergofit, with someone who isn't stuck in the 90's and has a collection of dildo-sized stems. He's at a 100mm stem at the moment, which is excessive for MTB. Fine for a road bike, but IMO (and again, in the opinion of an ever increasing amount of manufacturers, reviewers and testers) not okay at all for an MTB. I have never seen a situation where dropping wrists is due to handle bar width. Thats just plain bad technique and likely too short a top tube. A wider bar won't fix a fundamental error in bke geometry as it relates to the rider His current bar is 720mm. If he's having to cant his hands in and roll his wrists in order to fit, and feels as if he's very unstable, then a wider bar is at least part of the answer. 720mm is plenty wide for most people. I'm sure the bikes an XC bike anywway and not a DH bike so don't apply DH principals I've got a question for you - have you tried a short stem and wide bar combo on your Scalpel yet, and given it a chance? YEs on my Gemini i had a 760mm wide bar for the leverage needed to steer a 16kg rig downhill with a 2.5 tyre and 66 degree head angle and massive trail. The leverage was necessary therefore a wide bar.I've gone up to 720mm wide on my XC bike and quite frankly its pretty K&K to try and steer those wide bars between trees. I find no difference between the 580mm flat bar, the current 610mm riser or the 680mm rider I had on there previously smply because the leverage is not a factor in a twichy XC race bike. and no the wider bars does not make anythingmore stable what it does do is spread my arms further apart reducing the leverage my forearms can exert on the bars and gave rise to forearm pain. I ride the narrowest bar that allows me control.
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 there we go, the usual mayhem backtracking. lets go back to counter steer shall weTim, I'm not going to debate this with you unless you calm down and quit it with the personal attacks.. You've clearly had a bad day, but before you try to make even more personal attacks because you have a different viewpoint, and the Wide Bar / Short Stem "revolution" hasn't worked out for you, just take a step back and breathe a bit. All my points have been valid. The guy is having a problem with his setup. He's 1.95m tall, riding an extra large frame due to the unavailability of XXL frames. He's currently on a 720mm bar and 100mm stem, and needs to change a few things. A wider bar, given his size and reported discomfort will most probably go some way to sort it out - narrowing the bar when he already feels cramped will not do that. Extending the stem is NOT a good idea, no matter how you try to spin it. Hence the suggestion of a wider bar. It's not backtracking, it's simple expansion and affirmation that an ultra wide bar will not work for EVERYONE. Yes, geometry is of primary importance. But this is the guy's bike, and we're trying to help him. Come back when you've calmed down a bit, and for goodness sakes just try to be civil. Regarding the "counter steering" debacle - I admitted my error, but was later proven partly correct, though not for the original reason I was putting forward - nothing to do with shortening wheelbase, but more to flop the bike over to a larger lean angle. Was that not enough for you?
NicoBoshoff Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 true, but if he's on a 100mm stem then arguably the bike is too small for him... As for pottie, yeah. But he's a short arse! There are variances to be taken into consideration as well, but the wider bar shorter stem movement is still there for a good reason. Plus I doubt he's gone to a 650mm bar and lengthened his stem to 100mm...No his bike isn't too small for him. His body geometry just requires a longer stem, as confirmed by a proper bike fit and his subsequent improved riding experience. 100mm stems work for some. Why is that so hard to accept? Some people even ride with lycra. Oh the horror.
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 No his bike isn't too small for him. His body geometry just requires a longer stem, as confirmed by a proper bike fit and his subsequent improved riding experience. 100mm stems work for some. Why is that so hard to accept? Some people even ride with lycra. Oh the horror. Cool - then it's probably an outlier, and for his next bike he's probably going to go for something with a longer top tube in order to get the correct fit, without going for a stem that long. Some people have longer torsos / shorter torsos than others, and there will be outliers. But for the vast majority of people, a wide bar / short stem setup will yield better results than a narrow bar / long stem. That's precisely WHY the manufacturers like Mondraker / Gary Fisher etc are building "forward geometry" bikes - in order to facilitate the move to a short stem / wide bar on their bikes. For me, I ride with a 40mm stem and 780mm bars. I know my reach is slightly compromised, and I should probably have a slightly longer stem to have a bit more room, and I will most probably have a look at a 60mm stem just to get a little more room on the bike. But would I change it for a 680mm bar and 100mm stem? No way. That would position me too far forward over the front wheel, and actually give me greater instability on the bike. I've been there before, and it's not nice.
popcorn_skollie Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 Thanks guys, this is all really valuable. I'll document my progress on the matter. Let's not pretend the potential variables and solutions here aren't vast and complex. Just some of the possible parts of the solution could be: (can you think of others?) - seat up/down/forward/back/tilt- stem up/down/longer/shorter- bars wider/narrower/flat/riser/sweep- angle of the brakes on the bars- wrist/back/neck weakness and posture- core muscle use/strength- downhill/general technique- amount of time in saddle/out of saddle I am sure there are multiple adjustments that will make the numbness go away. The best solution is the one with the most positive side effects and least negative side effects according to personal priorities - do I want to be more maneuverable? Faster on uphills or downhills? Able to cover distances or handle technical stints? Is the climb or the flat or the down where I want to be at my best? And this was meant to be a casual, de-stressing hobby Look. I'm not suggesting a wider bar is going to fix the numb hands.Chances are it might. But I didnt suggest it as a fix.I suggested it because you are nearly 2 metres tall.I also suggested a shorter stem.Not because I want everyone on long travel bikes and baggies.But because the thought of a guy your size slouched over his front wheel while descending seems like trouble.
brucem76 Posted February 3, 2015 Author Posted February 3, 2015 op, what bike is it btw?2014 GT Zaskar Elite 9R XL - would be interested to hear thoughts on geometry, I'm clueless, new to this
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 Look. I'm not suggesting a wider bar is going to fix the numb hands.Chances are it might. But I didnt suggest it as a fix.I suggested it because you are nearly 2 metres tall.I also suggested a shorter stem.Not because I want everyone on long travel bikes and baggies.But because the thought of a guy your size slouched over his front wheel while descending seems like trouble.100% Core strength should alleviate most of the pressure on the hands, but that's a long term solution, albeit one that will have gains pretty much everywhere else as well. Hand positioning and such could be an issue, but once you've got your bars you should head on over for a fit. Something to the detractors here - I never said he should not go for a fit. I said he should wait until the wider bars are here and fitted before going for one. Preferably with one of the people who know what they're doing, like Renay Groustra (though he's away at the moment) or Debbie at Trail n Tar, and a few others.
NicoBoshoff Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 Cool - then it's probably an outlier, and for his next bike he's probably going to go for something with a longer top tube in order to get the correct fit, without going for a stem that long. Some people have longer torsos / shorter torsos than others, and there will be outliers. But for the vast majority of people, a wide bar / short stem setup will yield better results than a narrow bar / long stem. That's precisely WHY the manufacturers like Mondraker / Gary Fisher etc are building "forward geometry" bikes - in order to facilitate the move to a short stem / wide bar on their bikes. For me, I ride with a 40mm stem and 780mm bars. I know my reach is slightly compromised, and I should probably have a slightly longer stem to have a bit more room, and I will most probably have a look at a 60mm stem just to get a little more room on the bike. But would I change it for a 680mm bar and 100mm stem? No way. That would position me too far forward over the front wheel, and actually give me greater instability on the bike. I've been there before, and it's not nice.I don't think this has actually been stated in clear terms, but other than the fact that "the industry is going that way", what are you basing your opinion on? You seem to refuse to accept that in general there is no X is better, so I assume there is some actual research to show that wider and shorter is better more than 50% of the time. And by better I mean from a riding comfort and body specific point of view, not leverage (the leverage argument is anyways rubbish of you ignore rider dynamic - it's not a vacuum). It's all fine to make recommendations and say "well consider X as a possible solution". But you're coming from an angle of absolutes and there be dragons.
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted February 3, 2015 Posted February 3, 2015 2014 GT Zaskar Elite 9R XL - would be interested to hear thoughts on geometry, I'm clueless, new to thisWill have a look into it.
brucem76 Posted February 3, 2015 Author Posted February 3, 2015 100% Core strength should alleviate most of the pressure on the hands, but that's a long term solution, albeit one that will have gains pretty much everywhere else as well. Hand positioning and such could be an issue, but once you've got your bars you should head on over for a fit. Something to the detractors here - I never said he should not go for a fit. I said he should wait until the wider bars are here and fitted before going for one. Preferably with one of the people who know what they're doing, like Renay Groustra (though he's away at the moment) or Debbie at Trail n Tar, and a few others.Very keen for suggestions of who is good at fitting - in Cape Town. Northern Suburbs would be a bonus.
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