karma Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 not sure if anyone has looked at this kickstarter yet...but at 440 and 880 Euro, not sure it's really a market competitor...? http://www.brimbrothers.com/http://www.thebikecomesfirst.com/irish-company-launch-worlds-first-wearable-power-meter-for-cyclists-on-kickstarter/
Ryinc Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 Its been in development for years but delayed launches due to problems. If it is accurate and they introduce more pedal options it would have many advantages. Personally i think it could be a major competitor. I reckon solid single side oower meters will cost less than R2500-R3000 within 4 or 5 years.
Skinnyone Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 Its been in development for years but delayed launches due to problems. If it is accurate and they introduce more pedal options it would have many advantages. Personally i think it could be a major competitor. I reckon solid single side oower meters will cost less than R2500-R3000 within 4 or 5 years.While I agree with your statement about the price dropping, this will only happen IF the number of power meter sales doubles and pretty rapidly, this way manufacturers can allow for smaller margins because they can make on sheer turnover of product...the margins on any power meter is already drastically lower than most other accessories just to make the units affordable for the average joe. I also don't believe that more options are better either as there is not really any "new" way to measure power and if you take Stages, 4iii's and pioneer as an example - they all have very similar systems BUT each company has had to spend a lot of money doing R+D for their product...so this in itself makes a "new to market" product the same price as an existing product. Brimm brothers have spent years and thousands of $ and they still don't have a product on the shelves - so how much do they have to sell and at what price to make their money back and still remain competitive?
T-Bob Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 I'm still waiting for my Limits to arrive.... not shaping up the be the cleverest investment I've ever made.
Skinnyone Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 I'm still waiting for my Limits to arrive.... not shaping up the be the cleverest investment I've ever made. Unfortunately this is my point, this crowd funding thing in some cases is brilliant but some cases the product just needs more and more R+D and never makes it to market even after taking your money...
Ryinc Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 While I agree with your statement about the price dropping, this will only happen IF the number of power meter sales doubles and pretty rapidly, this way manufacturers can allow for smaller margins because they can make on sheer turnover of product...the margins on any power meter is already drastically lower than most other accessories just to make the units affordable for the average joe. I also don't believe that more options are better either as there is not really any "new" way to measure power and if you take Stages, 4iii's and pioneer as an example - they all have very similar systems BUT each company has had to spend a lot of money doing R+D for their product...so this in itself makes a "new to market" product the same price as an existing product. Brimm brothers have spent years and thousands of $ and they still don't have a product on the shelves - so how much do they have to sell and at what price to make their money back and still remain competitive? With respect i disagree quite substantially with your reading of the situation.Let's start on the point which we agree on:1. The cost of the product is in the R&D not the cost of the product itself.Now let's takle the points we disagree on:1. Pricing will be lowered because of increased competition entering the market not because of increased sales. If current producers felt they could make more money by lowering prices and increasing volumes they would have already done so prior to Stages entering the market. Once prices fall, volumes will obviously pick up but the increased volumes would not be the motivation for dropping the prices. Stages disrupted the market and caused prices to fall. Many of the other players have dropped prices since (including Stages themselves). Other entrants will continue this trend.2. Given that the cost of the product is in the R&D rather than the manufacture, existing players have already sunk their R&D costs. It costs them next to nothing to produce each additional marginal unit. They are therefore better off dropping prices to protect market share and still make some profit then having their market share completely eroded by a new entrant. SRM is only now realising how irrelevant they hare becoming in the power meter market and recently decided to drop prices. 3. The limited number of design options (i.e. your point about 4iiii, stages and pioneer being similar) if anything is more likely to lead to a more commoditised and mature market where R&D becomes less relevant and cannot be charged for. Therefore entrants who can simply backwards engineer the designs and will enter the market with extremely low prices to capture market share. Let's wait and see...
Zatopek Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 not sure if anyone has looked at this kickstarter yet...but at 440 and 880 Euro, not sure it's really a market competitor...? http://www.brimbrothers.com/http://www.thebikecomesfirst.com/irish-company-launch-worlds-first-wearable-power-meter-for-cyclists-on-kickstarter/I was in the same cycling club as Barry Redmond. Good staff & seems to be a quality idea/product. Was cool do see him do weekly spinning classes with his prototypes. It will be even greater to actually see it finally in production.
Skinnyone Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 Ok so lets take your example of Stages into account, they have a system that works ok but now the market demanded a carbon crank adaptable system - so they have to divert some of their money into making this happen and marketing the fact. AH-HA now here's another thing to consider - marketing...so lets supply Team Sky with our system...How much do you think that costs? taking into consideration that a team like that goes through +- 100 bikes in a season each needing a PM. But it doesn't stop there, Team Sky wants a cash injection as well half a million Euro sounds about right as a non-naming sponsor.... Who pays for all the above? you and me simply... PowerTap have been around for at least 20 years, but are they still runnning with their first incarnation of the hub? No they have bought out numerous variations of it along with the improvements they became lighter, more reliable, more user friendly etc - all of this evolution costs money. They have just released 2 more products on the market to remain relevant (unlike SRM who have rested on their laurels).These new products have taken R+D and marketing to bring a sell-able product that you may consider buying. Who pays for all of that? Basically you could make a power meter in your garage at home for less than R1000 but are your cycling buddies or community going to pay money for it? probably not, because it may be a bare PC board with wires everywhere and a very crude display that is mounted to your stem with prestick... Lets take cycling GPS's as an example of my point...a few years ago (2007/8) Garmin were the only brand around on the market, now you have alongside Garmin, Bryton, O-Synce, Polar, PowerTap, Suunto etc but has the price dropped because there are more competitors and options? NO if any thing the price has gone up because there are constantly new models coming out - the Garmin 1000 and the Suunto Ambit 3 etc ALL using R+D and marketing money...that you and I pay for ultimately...
Ryinc Posted February 12, 2016 Posted February 12, 2016 Ok so lets take your example of Stages into account, they have a system that works ok but now the market demanded a carbon crank adaptable system - so they have to divert some of their money into making this happen and marketing the fact. AH-HA now here's another thing to consider - marketing...so lets supply Team Sky with our system...How much do you think that costs? taking into consideration that a team like that goes through +- 100 bikes in a season each needing a PM. But it doesn't stop there, Team Sky wants a cash injection as well half a million Euro sounds about right as a non-naming sponsor.... Who pays for all the above? you and me simply... PowerTap have been around for at least 20 years, but are they still runnning with their first incarnation of the hub? No they have bought out numerous variations of it along with the improvements they became lighter, more reliable, more user friendly etc - all of this evolution costs money. They have just released 2 more products on the market to remain relevant (unlike SRM who have rested on their laurels).These new products have taken R+D and marketing to bring a sell-able product that you may consider buying. Who pays for all of that? Basically you could make a power meter in your garage at home for less than R1000 but are your cycling buddies or community going to pay money for it? probably not, because it may be a bare PC board with wires everywhere and a very crude display that is mounted to your stem with prestick... Lets take cycling GPS's as an example of my point...a few years ago (2007/8) Garmin were the only brand around on the market, now you have alongside Garmin, Bryton, O-Synce, Polar, PowerTap, Suunto etc but has the price dropped because there are more competitors and options? NO if any thing the price has gone up because there are constantly new models coming out - the Garmin 1000 and the Suunto Ambit 3 etc ALL using R+D and marketing money...that you and I pay for ultimately...Powertap have dropped prices despite the r&d investments made. I am not talking about me bringing out a power meter for R1000 from my garage. I am talking about more companies like 4iiii, brimm brothers bringing prices down. Research what prices brimm brothers were originally going to charge and their prices now. Same product, more money spent but lower price because market became more competitive inbetween. GPS have managed to add features which customers value to protect pricing. If power meters can do this (e.g stages carbon example) they will also protect pricing (temporarily). What did a basic GPS unit cost 15 years ago? First car gps units cost 2000 dollars. Have a look at this thread about the cost of 305 and 705 garmin units from 2009 (lower spec device, similar prices in rands to current gps despite massive fall in rand) https://community.bikehub.co.za/topic/41230-price-on-garmin-edge-305-705/ There are now multiple gps units that retail for about 50 pounds. So i would disagree that gps has not become much cheaper, at least in dollar terms.
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