Tandem(what make)

[Slowbee]

Unlike you' date=' Johan, I am not on a personal crusade to prove how much I know. I admit I do not know enough about the topic, but at least I have an open mind about it.

[/quote']

 

 

Wow ...

[Johan Bornman]

Lots of stuff cut out

 

 

This argument is too zen for me. If I measure something and find it to be 300mm, and I'm a reasonably competent measurer, then it is fact that the piece is 300mm, lets not get all philosophical about that. No need to start applying Descartes to the issue.

 

"Spokes flap about in the wind." Lots of people think this is what happens when spokes break, but it isn't. If there are enough spokes in the wheel, they feel nothing. If there are too few spokes in the wheel, the rim will touch the brakes and they may or may not notice, depending on how small the spoke compliment is. However, there is no rattling about of wild, loose-cannon spokes in there. A breaking spoke is a non-event that poses no danger to paint, skin or jockeys.

 

However, lets not take that as fact. Here's the deal. Bring your bike around to me and I'll cut a spoke. You go for a ride and see if you can get the spoke to flap about. I'll repair the wheel afterwards and cut another spoke at the other end. You go for another ride. I'll repair it again and you report to the group what you experienced.

 

If you don't want to do that to your wheel, I'll supply a wheel but please don't complain about the partiality of my biased wheel afterwards.

 

Finally, I think your last comment is the ultimate cop-out in arguments like this and it doesn't do you any favours. I interpret it as "even if machines, measurements and riding it cannot prove the difference, I am still right because in my mind there is a difference."

 

Look, you are welcome to solder, weld, glue or twist your spokes. I have no issue with that. I take issue with claims that it makes a difference in safety, response (whatever that means), strength and other measurable and tangible entities.

 

This old myth comes from the highwheeler days more than 100 years ago and refuses to die. However, I think (opinion alert) even there it was misguided. Most highwheelers have 8-cross spokes and to make a spoke flap about in that configuration is impossible.

 

How about it, we get together and do the experiment and tell it like it is? I'm sure we can get a few independent observers to make sure I don't pull a Mugabe on the audience.

 

 

[TheLegend]

Unlike you' date=' Johan, I am not on a personal crusade to prove how much I know. I admit I do not know enough about the topic, but at least I have an open mind about it.

 

[/quote']

 

 

 

Wow ...

 

 

 

[jmaccelari]

 

 

However' date=' lets not take that as fact. Here's the deal. Bring your bike around to me and I'll cut a spoke. You go for a ride and see if you can get the spoke to flap about. I'll repair the wheel afterwards and cut another spoke at the other end. You go for another ride. I'll repair it again and you report to the group what you experienced.

 

If you don't want to do that to your wheel, I'll supply a wheel but please don't complain about the partiality of my biased wheel afterwards.

 

 

Finally, I think your last comment is the ultimate cop-out in arguments like this and it doesn't do you any favours. I interpret it as "even if machines, measurements and riding it cannot prove the difference, I am still right because in my mind there is a difference." 

Look, you are welcome to solder, weld, glue or twist your spokes. I have no issue with that. I take issue with claims that it makes a difference in safety, response (whatever that means), strength and other measurable and tangible entities.

[/quote']

Ah! Now we have some great comments!!! This I agree with. However, I do believe

the report you quote which says the soldering does not affect the structural stability

("stiffness", if we may) of a well built wheel was a static lab test. That makes sense to

me, so I would not be interested in recreating that experiment.

 

For those of you not familiar with the test, a reference is here:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/tied-soldered.html

My concerns with this test are that the weight was only 35lb (15kg) and it was static.

 

The two tests I would like to try are:

- dynamic lateral weighting of the wheel (i.e. simulate cornering of the wheel with a

  typical tandem weight - +-150kgs);

- cut a spoke (and then some more) and see the result in the rim going out of true on

  soldered and non-soldered spokes.

 

How about it' date=' we get together and do the experiment and tell it like it is? I'm sure we can get a few independent observers to make sure I don't pull a Mugabe on the audience.

 [/quote']

My aim is not to prove you "wrong" or myself "correct" (or vice versa). I am simply

interested in seeing what will happen. I do not believe you would "cook" any results!

 

The second test is easier to perform. I would suggest:

- get a stock of spokes;

- build a wheel without soldering (check spoke tensions as a reference);

- cut one spoke & apply force(s) (how - ride it?);

- measure any distortion on the rim;

- cut another spoke & repeat.

Then solder and do the same test.

 

Trying to answer a question like "safer" is a problem. Is a wheel safer because

there is less distortion on the rim? In this case the stresses on the affected

spokes may increase - might this not be more unsafe? I don't know and I don't

think we should go there (yet).

 

The first test is more complex. I don't think we can do it on a bike. We'd need a jig

where we can clamp the wheel at an angle and then apply forces - measuring either:

- the amount of force required for a specified deflection; or

- the amount of deflection that results from the application of a specific force

for both soldered and non-soldered wheels. We would need to determine

what forces to apply to simulate a 150kg load at a typical bicycle lean angle.

Does any Hubber have access to this type of test equipment?

 

This (I think) will result in some information that will be very interesting either

way.

 

Finally: yep, my last comment was a cop out as I don't have an opinion either

way. It's just a controversial issue I would like to know more about and I am not the

type of person that just takes a "because it is so" type of argument. Also,  quite

often, cycling is more psychological than an equation defined by numbers...

 

Let's get some empirical numbers and then we can start arguing what we can infer

from them (if anything).

jmaccelari2008-05-12 03:27:47

[RaceChick]

My husband and I have just bought the Raleigh Tandem but I find it difficult to ride his cadence and when we go round a corner it feels as if the bike will give way under us. Is this a natural feeling? Will I get use to it? We have only been riding the tandem ?2 weeks. Any advice on how we can ride a tandem more effectively?

[cyclenut]

My husband and I have just bought the Raleigh Tandem but I find it difficult to ride his cadence and when we go round a corner it feels as if the bike will give way under us. Is this a natural feeling? Will I get use to it? We have only been riding the tandem ?2 weeks. Any advice on how we can ride a tandem more effectively?

 

Re Cornering: Trust him. Don't fight him.

Re Cadence: Still waiting for JB to respond on my comment re a sprag clutch - see somewhere in the previous pages.

[WorcesterWheelers]

My husband and I have just bought the Raleigh Tandem but I find it difficult to ride his cadence and when we go round a corner it feels as if the bike will give way under us. Is this a natural feeling? Will I get use to it? We have only been riding the tandem ?2 weeks. Any advice on how we can ride a tandem more effectively?

 

Re Cornering: Trust him. Don't fight him.

Re Cadence: Still waiting for JB to respond on my comment re a sprag clutch - see somewhere in the previous pages.

 

Re Cornering: Trust him. Don't fight him.

(Can't aggree more, on a tandem its all about TRUST)

 

Cadence: Here you need to reach a compromise, but usually its always better to spin a lighter gear than to grind a huge one, your legs will last longer......

 

Again, TRUST & communication.... two essential ingredients to any successfull tandem pairing.

[turtlek]

i would definitely buy the raleigh from a price perspective but if you looking at a better buy and you have the cash then look at the trek T2000 comes with carbon cranks and the best tandem wheels on the market at the moment it is a bit pricey but for wat you are getting you will never have to upgrade unless you want one of those beasts pictured earlier!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[RaceChick]

Thanx, will try the trust thing. It is just so difficult to let go.

[jmaccelari]

 

My husband and I have just bought the Raleigh Tandem but I find it difficult to ride his cadence and when we go round a corner it feels as if the bike will give way under us. Is this a natural feeling? Will I get use to it? We have only been riding the tandem ?2 weeks. Any advice on how we can ride a tandem more effectively?

As a newbie to tandems, I might be qualified for this one!

 

The feeling I get (as the pilot), is the tandem lifting away from me, or fighting against

me as my partner shifts against what I am doing. It started off really bad (we made 10m

on our first attempt), but as we got used to each other, this feeling disappeared. It's

a case of the two of you getting used to each other and moving as one unit as

opposed to two.

 

The cadence is an issue. My partner tends to spin much higher than me, whereas

I use more power. Again this is a case of accommodating each other. We found

a cadence that was mostly acceptable for both of us, but I still sometimes used more

power and he asked for more cadence if it was uncomfortable.

 

 

[Guest Big H]

My husband and I have just bought the Raleigh Tandem but I find it difficult to ride his cadence and when we go round a corner it feels as if the bike will give way under us. Is this a natural feeling? Will I get use to it? We have only been riding the tandem ?2 weeks. Any advice on how we can ride a tandem more effectively?

 

Re Cornering: Trust him. Don't fight him.

Re Cadence: Still waiting for JB to respond on my comment re a sprag clutch - see somewhere in the previous pages.

 

Re Cornering: Trust him. Don't fight him.

(Can't aggree more' date=' on a tandem its all about TRUST)

 

Cadence: Here you need to reach a compromise, but usually its always better to spin a lighter gear than to grind a huge one, your legs will last longer......

 

Again, TRUST & communication.... two essential ingredients to any successfull tandem pairing.

[/quote']

 

WW you forgot the most important rule...... in the word of Sheldon Brown (RIP) ...." THE STOKER IS ALWAYS RIGHT" It does not matter if you thought you were right the stoker is always right.

 

That brings me to the next rule..... in Tandem cycling there is no grey areas. It is either right or wrong!!!! Nothing inbetween. Tandemming is either a honeymoon or you will cycle straight into the divorce court...... there is NO compromises and nothing inbetween. It takes a long time for a successful tandem team to gel. While the bonding and gelling takes place COMMUNICATE!!!!!!! Tell the stoker there is a pothole, tell the stoker you are going to stop, tell the stoker you love her and that she is the best stoker in the world. In return she might scratch that itch on your back!!!!!!!

[Guest Big H]

My husband and I have just bought the Raleigh Tandem but I find it difficult to ride his cadence and when we go round a corner it feels as if the bike will give way under us. Is this a natural feeling? Will I get use to it? We have only been riding the tandem ?2 weeks. Any advice on how we can ride a tandem more effectively?

 

Go and read at this link and search for items on tandems. Very good advice.

 

http://sheldonbrown.com/tandem/index.html

 

It helped us a lot almost 25 000km ago!!!!!!!! and we are still going strong. Since then we cycled a lot in South AFrica, Six times the ARGUS and other races. We had the tandem in Mozambique, Nigeria and now in Angola.

 

 

 

 

 

[decibach db]

Tandem is the best way of cycling that I've ever done.

 

It's actually amazing how many great riders out there has never ridden Tandem before.

 

 

 

Another great discovery I've made the last 2 months is Q-rings.

 

Budget and put them on straight out of the cycle shop.

 

It gives you and your stoker a much more even power stroke.

 

The best thing ever on uphills.

 

 

 

Or don't put them on.... and discover the difference... 15 years later... like me.

 

 

 

And yes... as soon as you get the "stoker is always right idea" in your head... the better your tandem cycling will become.

[bob_the_builder]

 

Tandem is the best way of cycling that I've ever done.

 

It's actually amazing how many great riders out there has never ridden Tandem before.

 

 

 

Another great discovery I've made the last 2 months is Q-rings.

 

Budget and put them on straight out of the cycle shop.

 

It gives you and your stoker a much more even power stroke.

 

The best thing ever on uphills.

 

 

 

Or don't put them on.... and discover the difference... 15 years later... like me.

 

 

 

 

Waddya mean? 15 years ago they had square chainrings... they called them "Biopace" didn't last then either...

 

[Guest Big H]

Interesting one from a messageboard on the internet:-

 

1. The first rule of tandeming is "the Stoker is always right." Actually, Mike and I have modified that to "the Stoker is never wrong" to capture the fact that the stoker shouldn't be held responsible for unpredictable reactions to unknown conditions.

2. Trust your captain. Early on I would close my eyes on big, fast descents and chant my mantra "Mike won't crash, Mike won't crash, if I just sit still Mike won't crash". It wasn't long before I was taking those descents with eyes wide open, begging for more speed.

3. The stoker, especially a kid stoker, should have a rear-view mirror and a bell. Put the stoker in charge of keeping the captain informed of upcoming traffic AND communicating the team's intentions back to that traffic. A bell is great for social contact with the passers-by who almost always smile at tandems, when they scowl at (or ignore) singles.

4. Indulge in a set of matching jerseys. Talk about feeling like a TEAM!

5. The captain should remember that he has no pockets any longer ? the stoker simply has front pockets and back pockets. Take care of handing stuff forward (handkerchief, food, etc.) so the captain can focus on captaining.

6. Find a copy of the book "The Tandem Scoop" by John Schubert.

7. You're in the Eugene area, right? Contact Burley, Bike Friday, or Co-Motion to see if there are any tandem group rides happening. There was a tandem club starting down there, but I don't know what their current status is.

8. Ride, ride, ride, and HAVE FUN!

The Other Amy, Stoker
Team Tangerine Dream

http://www.cyclingsite.com/collected_wisdom/what_to_take/bikes/tandems.htm

 

 

 

[jmaccelari]

 

WW you forgot the most important rule...... in the word of Sheldon Brown (RIP) ...." THE STOKER IS ALWAYS RIGHT" It does not matter if you thought you were right the stoker is always right.

Big H - are you serious about this? I thought the pilot called the shots and the

stoker did what he was told to?