Racing format in WC is not the answer

[NeverEnder]

My experience in terms of seeding...

 

If you have reasonable ability, moving up to a D/C seeding is not too difficult. It is getting from C/B to A/B that is more challenging. If you are riding in C bunch, the time differences to move up becomes tougher (and on the flat races where there are 200 people finishing close together in terms of time it does not help.) You are not going to TT on your own to match the times set by the winners.

 

The only way to qualify for a A/Elite seeding is to start with A/Elite.

 

It was only the tougher summer league that allowed me to jump the next step to a high B/low A; where I think my talent also runs out and I am happy to stagnate.

 

So for a rider in Cat 2 , to move up to Cat 1 will be hard. Since you need a Cat 1 start to get a Cat 1 time on the typical PPA race.

 

So the answer is not a more complex seeding systems - you will never win. They need to look at the races. As stated, most people only managed to improve their seeding with the more challenging races. There are too many flat, short & fast 80-110km races in the calendar. We need more races like the 1-tonner, 99er etc that will present a real challenge. Specifically if we want to develop standards in Cat1 $ Cat2. The tougher race separate the groups, so if you have the ability, after a couple of races it will influence your seeding.

 

Now we only have 3-4 races in a year that really allow you to make a jump to the top level, and if team tactics or bad luck is against you - its back to square one.

 

So what are the chances & challenges to expand the race route options. We have so many possibilities in the WC - Franshoek/Villiersdorp; Wellington/Ceres; Overberg etc. It would be great to experience more than racing around Wellington via Malmesbury as is currently the case.

 

The new 99'er is a good example of a previously slightly boring route that is now a very interesting challenge. We need more of these, and it will also present more opportunities to shine if you have the legs.

 

PS - Andy on current form you will be a solid B rider long before the end of the season.

[Lucky Luke.]

My experience in terms of seeding...

 

If you have reasonable ability, moving up to a D/C seeding is not too difficult. It is getting from C/B to A/B that is more challenging. If you are riding in C bunch, the time differences to move up becomes tougher (and on the flat races where there are 200 people finishing close together in terms of time it does not help.) You are not going to TT on your own to match the times set by the winners.

 

The only way to qualify for a A/Elite seeding is to start with A/Elite.

 

It was only the tougher summer league that allowed me to jump the next step to a high B/low A; where I think my talent also runs out and I am happy to stagnate.

 

So for a rider in Cat 2 , to move up to Cat 1 will be hard. Since you need a Cat 1 start to get a Cat 1 time on the typical PPA race.

 

So the answer is not a more complex seeding systems - you will never win. They need to look at the races. As stated, most people only managed to improve their seeding with the more challenging races. There are too many flat, short & fast 80-110km races in the calendar. We need more races like the 1-tonner, 99er etc that will present a real challenge. Specifically if we want to develop standards in Cat1 $ Cat2. The tougher race separate the groups, so if you have the ability, after a couple of races it will influence your seeding.

 

Now we only have 3-4 races in a year that really allow you to make a jump to the top level, and if team tactics or bad luck is against you - its back to square one.

 

So what are the chances & challenges to expand the race route options. We have so many possibilities in the WC - Franshoek/Villiersdorp; Wellington/Ceres; Overberg etc. It would be great to experience more than racing around Wellington via Malmesbury as is currently the case.

 

The new 99'er is a good example of a previously slightly boring route that is now a very interesting challenge. We need more of these, and it will also present more opportunities to shine if you have the legs.

 

PS - Andy on current form you will be a solid B rider long before the end of the season.

 

I think Andy is a high B / low A at the moment. Whatever he is he rode past me yesterday, and I'm a high B.

 

Anyhow, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that two time trial events - one hill climb and one flat - before the league starts is the best way to sort everybody into the right categories.

 

Kind of like two qualifying events before the racing starts.

 

• The events are logistically simple to put on compared to a race.
• The data is a far more meaningful benchmark than any race.
• There is a captive market - everybody who intends to ride league, has trained for it and has any kind of form will want to do them.
• Charge a nominal entry fee to cover the cost of the events, or incorporate the additional cost into the league entry.
• Great events to watch, especially the hill climb.
• We often have tt events towards the end of winter anyways. This year there were none and I noticed several people on the hub asking why not.
• No need to worry about arbitrary age boundaries creating categories that are too big or too small.

Come on Pro Classic series peeps, you know it makes sense!

Edited January 17, 2011 by Luke.

[Tankman]

I fully support your ideas Luke.

 

Almost always your race time is determined by the bunch, tactics of teams in the bunch and the type of course.

If you start in the wrong group, then it is pretty tough to go much faster than the bunch on your own over a 100km race.

 

Eliminate the bunch factor and you will determine your own true speed and strength.

Just you against the clock and the wind and no one else influencing your time or your ability.

 

 

Most of the races suit the lightweights anyway and they all already have A/B seedings.

 

There can even be different course, a longer 45km course, a short 10km course, a slightly hilly 15km course and these can be mixed up for variation.

[Woofie]

I thought the hill climb TT event was a nice idea. If they had one of those that everyone knew about, and a flat TT the next week using only non-TT equipped (road-race legal) bikes, I think that would give them a good indication of ability across the spectrum of riders.

 

Run those two events a couple weeks before Spring League starts and you'll have a great set of data with which to create your categories.

 

100%

I was thinking about this yesterday morning.

 

They need to do a hill and flat TT before the start of spring league so that they can use those times to seed anyone who wants to ride league. Maybe even two events (4 in total) incase there is any mechanicals.

[Woofie]

Was also thinking that having different racing cats on top of a normal funride is really hard to split the groups properly etc, as we are all seeing from the complaints.

 

In the current format that it is (also because of the current seeding system) it would almost work for them to scrap "league" and anybody that rides league rides in their ppa seeding.

They can open this up to all riders even, but they will need to join "league" for the season and pay up front for all the events.

If you are not then "racing league" you will have to use a different starting block and possibly even get started unseeded at the back (after all, they are only doing a "funride" if they are not in the racing cats.)

Downside is that we loose our age cat starting blocks totally. And also it may end up splitting racing teams where they may have a rider in B or something.

Doing that they could even make it that you collect your racing number before the event and give it back afterwards and they could adjust your seeding in realtime depending on your current racing form.

Along with TT's as well, by the time you get to the next event, they may hand you a higher or lower seeding

Another upside is that we will finally have some races where they dont end up starting A-D together.

 

I dont know

[Tankman]

Dont quite get what you are saying there Woosie, sounds a bit deurmekaar!

 

I will comment on one bit "They can open this up to all riders even" - NO please dont do that. You have to earn you right to ride in the ABCDEF bunches. You have to gain some experience, bike handling and bunch riding skills before riding in the top half of the seeding system.

 

We all had to do it that way, otherwise any noob or tjop is just going to end up causing serious issues for himself.

There are still guys riding like tjops in the top half of the seeding system but at least we more or less know who they are by now and either avoid them or ride in front of them

[Woofie]

Dont quite get what you are saying there Woofie, sounds a bit deurmekaar!

 

I will comment on one bit "They can open this up to all riders even" - NO please dont do that. You have to earn you right to ride in the ABCDEF bunches. You have to gain some experience, bike handling and bunch riding skills before riding in the top half of the seeding system.

 

We all had to do it that way, otherwise any noob or tjop is just going to end up causing serious issues for himself.

There are still guys riding like tjops in the top half of the seeding system but at least we more or less know who they are by now and either avoid them or ride in front of them

 

We are riding league because we have the required seeding and experience to get up into there.

If you ride league with your P seeding, then you will start with other P riders.

So they will never filter up into the proper racing cats until they have reached the required seeding and by that time they will also be "racing smart"

So yes, you will still have to earn your "right". Start at the bottom and work your way up like everyone.

There will be some TT's along the way to help, but it is still going to be hard work to move up.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Woofie

[Tankman]

Ja, that is what I said!

 

I still dont get what you tried to say there, never mind.

Edited January 18, 2011 by Tankman