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Get your facts straight Shaunh - dont ASSUME I was driving and taking the picture - read the post first and you will see there were 4 (yes four) people in the car. ............and actually the driver - my wife - DID NOT TAKE THE SHOT. A double decker bus has no OPTION but to use up the road, thats its size and there are NO OPTIONS. Cyclists riding two abreast in the middle of the road HAVE OPTIONS - you cant compare the two.

True MS,..................!! ..............unfortunately most people know its seldom worth litigating for R10,000.00 and chance it, so sometimes you have to call the bluff. Besides, if you win the case, he would bear the costs of litigation anyway.

UH-HUH - his name is "Wouter" and I think 28"?????.....hmm, bit bigger than that Wolverine, a bit bigger. No, he is not a lawyer. Yes, he is a "debt collecter". My suggestion is deal with your local attorney and let him correspond with a Pretoria based attorney who will issue summons etc. It will make your life simpler in the long run.

I also cant work it out Oiltrash, I dont know what photo they looked at, but as you say, theres no Double lane where I took the photo, its very twisty and its actually quite narrow, which is the main reason it took so long to overtake, you just couldnt see around the corner. widget2008-01-14 06:51:51

Hmmmm, did I not see some other posts here that appear to be "gone now" - including some from Mr Emmer and yourself PPWTF , - why would that be?

You know Speed devil you are right. Its about time we started policing ourselves and making it unpleasant for those who think they are a law unto themselves, which in turn puts the rest of us in danger or a poor light with motorists. I considered doing a bit of shouting to move over in this case, and in other circumstances would have, but I had a supplier and his wife, plus my wife with me, so didnt really want to make a scene. Maybe we could start a thread here and post pics (we all have mobile phones, most with cameras so its easy) of cyclists been idiots, disregarding the law, been disrespectfull etc sooner or later it has to get through.?

Correct oops then i'm sorry!! but the scenery is nice around there No argument from me' date=' i'll see it on the 9th March again when i do a fun ride there and i can ride 2/3/4 abreast [/quote'] - and at any speed eh Scotty!! ...............and Yes BMC fan, the scenary is very nice,............ and we had a long time to admire it.

Painted yourself with the same brush as the rest of the non/anti-cycling motorists in SA' date=' shame on you [/quote'] Really Shortlegs?? Thats a very "short" sighted statement, and I wont even comment further on it.

AAAAARGH - I GIVE UP.!!!

Not at all, Not at all.!! Even he commented that it was not acceptable to hold up the traffic for 15 minutes while they enjoyed the scenary.

I dont care who the *** he is, what makes him special that he can ride in the middle of the road?? - dont you think the "local"? who was riding with him should have said "hey bud, move over and let the cars pass" its not like they were putting in an effort, they were riding at 15/20 kms. This isnt Europe, this is Cape Town, IF YOU WANT RESPECT ON THE ROAD, OBEY THE RULES of the country - riding like an IDIOT just because you are with some Euro Pro (and allowing him to do the same) dosnt impress me or anyone else stuck in the traffic behind. When I am in Europe, I obey the rules of the country, when I am in the USA I obey the rules of the country - what makes him or anyone else differant here.??

supplier from Belgium who was here on a short vacation. I collected his wife and himself at his hotel at 9am and he expressed an interest in driving around the mountain to Hout bay for lunch, I agreed and off we went. On the road to camps bay there was an all mighty back up of cars on the narrow road, thinking it was just a holiday scenario I sat patirntly in the que for 15minutes until I saw the reason for the back up - Two idiots riding at 15/20 kms an hour in the middle of the road forcing everyone behind to "just wait" to pass.

I spend virtually all day dealing in Imports and distribution (my own, and not cycles), so I can assure you the 30% duty on FOOTWEAR (shoes) is standard and definately STILL stands. Actually let me re-classify - Customs states that "anything you wear on your foot is "FOOTWEAR" it dosnt matter what it is, flip flops, cycling shoes, beach walkers, gum boots, running shoes, dive boots - its ALL footwear, and as far as I can see all tariff charges on footwear have a 30% duty or a R5.00 per item TAX - whichever is the greater applies. So if the 30% duty value per item is less than R5.00 - THE R5.00 tax will apply. Sometimes the P.O dos not tarriff the items correctly, especially if the invoice is in a foreign language, the item is just stated as say "Jewelers tool" (which could mean anything) in which case they just charge the VAT and let it through. If that happens, its not your fault and you score a bit of money. Sometimes the same happens with clearing agents, or the clearing agent is just lazy and clears duty free because he cant be bothered to check the line - HOWEVER, if the order comes through a shipper, is cleared by the shipping agent and is then stopped and inspected by SARS (and believe me it happens OFTEN)and is found to be incorrectly tariffed, both you and the shipper stand to be fined. So if you got away with it this time and it was imported through a shipper, well it was a lucky break and you saved some money, but dont expect it to happen every time. Importers dont have this luxury, as they are registered with customs and have a record on file of lines they import, so every invoice is just captured by the tarriff clerk and the manufacturers code will be matched with the customs code on file and "bang" duty is charged - so its impossible to have a batch of shoes come through customs without duty charged.

Hmm, I prefer the other "more attractive pics" on Pez.!

Heeeeeey, greatwhite, dont be so defensive. I have been racing "vets 40 plus" for 8 years now, (Gary Benekes club) this year it will be Vets 50 plus, rest assured, in small events where there is a mass start you will find the "squirrels" everywhere, jumping around in the bunch, weaving in and out and generally upsetting the stability. Even if they only stay there for 20 / 30 / 40kms its really scary, for me anyway. I am used to the comments "you ride on the road so........." - "you cant live in a bubble......................" "crashes can happen anywhere............." and so on - of course I agree, theres risks everywhere, but I reduce my risks where I can, I dont invite reckless behaviour in my vicinity and I dont fly UNITED AIRLINES (9/11 ISSUE) Personally, I dont have issues riding / training on the road, I dont train in big groups, so I either fly solo or its just me and my training partner. I am seldom nervous on the road on my own and find we are almost always accepted as part of the moving traffic because we obey the rules of the road, make ourselves visible with lights etc and are courtious and friendly to other road users. Actually in all the years training on the road daily, I can only recall one or two incidents of reckless behaviour which threatened my ride, however I cant really say the same about small events / races.

I think it would be NICE if folk apologised, especially if they knew they caused an accident, but I doubt its ever going to happen. The answer is really to stay out of unstable bunches, I find riding in the Vets bunches the group is much more stable and theres constant communication amongst the cyclists, (occassionally its not pretty, but hey, if it keeps me of the floor, thats fine.) Riding in small events where there is no Vet catagory is just plain scary to me, the "squirrels" are weaving in and out of the bunch, there are folk who are wobelling around, theres the guy / gals plainly out of his / her depth and you just know they is gonna crash soon - Naaaa, one of the reasons I dont race the small events anymore.

Have not bought online from them yet' date=' but from what I understand and from posts on the Hub, you will have to pay VAT, so you need to factor that into the overall costs. You will also pay extra for DHL shipping rather than standard or parcel force. And if you buy clothes or shoes or complete bikes there is a customs charge. Can someone confirm this please?[/quote'] Theres a lot of posts on this if you do a search, but in general "yes" thats correct.

For every plus there is a minus, its the way of the world. We could debate whats better LBS or ONLINE for the next 10 years and be no closer to an answer. Personally, I buy everything online including tyres and tubes, but thats because I cant be bothered driving around in JHB traffic, its much more comfortable in my study, browsing sites with a cup of tea and a plate of biscuits (or on other occassions, something stronger.) Usually,I know what I want and its a simple selection process, it may be impersonal but I dont really have any interest in been the LBS owners best friend, - I have my own friends, but thanks anyway. I dont mind paying for a service like a repair and I go wherever its convenient for me on the day, which is not necessarily the closest shop to my house or office (actually I never go there ) and I would never ask a shop for a favour without offering to renumerate them - I dont expect it from my customers and I dont ask others to do the same. The bottom line is, Shop, buy, where ever you want, its your money and time, you dont need to justify it to anyone or get their approval for your choice.

Hmm, I would like to say, Mr Els plays the crying game well, he wants all and sundry to think he is the ONLY person doing the retailers a favour, well let me just say that I am also involved in a supply and distribution business, and like Mr Els I also supply most of the major retailers, plus the independants, and its NOT only the independants who use delay tactics and extend the wholesaler / distributor, but the multinational conglomorates with daily turnovers of millions as well (but I guess he forgot to mention that). .......... plus, most of them (major retailer) import and retail their own lines in direct oposition to Mr ELS (and me) but I doubt he will be stopping their account anytime soon, because its generally too lucrative financially and quantity (units moved) wise in the long term, however a small dealer like CWC wont dent their bottom line, so its easy to play "groot crocodil" Anyway, I have had my say, I wont comment on this anymore. ........and by the way, I am NOT in the cycle industry. However, I am interested in "Korbachs" post - firstly Korbach you use the term "GREY" quite liberally, I doubt thats true and leads to unpleasant connotations, lets stick to "PARALLEL IMPORTS" and assume, until we know differantly, that CWC and all others who sell in opposition to the official distributor are paying all relevant taxes. In other words no unfair advantage. You seem to be stuck on the notion that its unfair to ride on the official distributors back - thats clearly and simply a "moral" point not a business one. A PLEASANTRY reserved for tea and cucumber sandwiches on the porch, in reality and in fact, every single major retailer in this country dos exactly the same, they rely unashamedly on the brand holder to do all advertising and get the product into the market, and then once its established, they simply start parallell importing the same line, and start discounting AGAINST the official importer, companies like LG, SAMSUNG, BOSCH, BLACK AND DECKER to name a few are ALL in the same boat - this is not new, the retailers, AND GENERALLY CONSUMERS are not interested in paying for the official distributors problems and sponsorships, the RETAILERS want the sale, they know what the customer is willing to pay, and will do whats necessary to get the cash (and that usually means price discounting). Be Honest now Korbach, will you pay R20,000 for a Plasma screen from an official distributors shop because he sponsors some sporting team, advertises the brand, holds massive stock, has a big warehouse and a smart computor system with a telephone which plays pretty little ditties while you wait, or are you going to run into HI-FI CORPORATION (who do nothing like that) and buy a parallell imported Plasma for R12000.00 (an R8000,00 saving)?????????????? - I shall bet you will go for the Hi-Fi option. If a wholesaler / distributor wants to get involved in sponsorships etc, this is a cost for them, not to be passed onto the consumer, as the consumer gets no benefit from it directly. Importing and distribution as well as retail has changed dramatically over the last 5/10 years, EVERY SINGLE MANUFACTURER, IMPORTER,DISTRIBUTOR AND RETAILER WITHOUT EXCEPTION IS TRYING TO GET CLOSER TO THEIR TARGET MARKET - THATS YOU AND ME. No longer can an importer sit in an ivory tower, dictate who sells what and how, control price and outlets and above all say "I dont want to deal with the public" - at least not if you want to stay in business that is. Unfortunately importers in SA (and not only in the cycle industry) are stuck in a time warp 10 years back, they want to carry on as it was 10 years ago because its easy and convenient for them, but consumers are moving forward, they are computer literate, knowledagable, mobile and know what they want and how much they are prepared to pay for it. If your price is padded by sponsorships, glitzy shop fronts, excessive staff, high rentals etc you WILL find somebody stealing your market, you can be PRO-ACTIVE about as some are or you can be RE-ACTIVE as we are seeing here - as the famous saying gos - ITS NOT PERSONAL - ITS BUSINESS.!! As far as your comment gos on over supplier over runs, yes in some instances true, however, in my experience its not the main source, there are countless international distributors who will supply anyone at a small margin to keep up their sales figures with their supplier and ensure a continued low initial price to them. Its really just the numbers game, 10,000 units costs XYZ but 15,000 costs 5% less - the distributor cant sell the extra 5000 units locally, so gos international at a 3% margin - simple.

Yhey say there is no such thing as "Bad Advertising" and CWC seems to be getting the best form possible - word of mouth. I do trust a public apology from Mr ELS and the Management of Pro-bike will appear here soon.

Whoooo, now its getting dirty. ...........but let me just say, direct selling as someone pointed out is not revolutionary, lots of companies do it with their own outlets, lets look at Levi, Reebok,Addidas, Timberland,Diesel etc - not exactly poor companies eh?. I say again, this economy and market (bicycles) is too small for a distributor based system to be economically viable, so Yes, probably direct selling or own retail outlets is the way some distributors will be forced to go just to survive. Its not personal, its business, and its TOUGH.!

Sure, Pro-Bike is doing well because they are probably the biggest fish in a very small pool so Its difficult to ignore them. They have been clever in that they have not concentrated on the elite market but have cultivated a huge mass market appeal, (ie) they sell everything from the cheapest kiddies bike to the dik wiel to the top end ranges, they also have a huge footprint in the mass retailers, which gives them a readily acceptable and known brand without any advertising (when last did you see an advert for a dik wiel - but they sell thousands) so to a degree, pro shops are somewhat forced to stock their lines if they want to sell to the mass market. Mass market products are well priced, so a distributor can make a reasonable margin, although I believe that a certain amount of cross subsidation also gos on at Pro-Bike, its the top end brands that become expensive through distribution channels and here Pro-Bike was very clever with thier own Raleigh brand - no competition at all. Elite brands have a much smaller market to sell to and have no cross subsidation so every sale is important and this is where CWC has scored a good market. ................but that said, I also believe, if the local distributors of elite brands stopped acting like sheep following the herd, and started thinking for themselves, they would realise that their is a massive untapped source of goodwill by servicing "parallell imports" and "on-line" sales warranty and product issues, and perhaps regain some lost goodwill, but with the immature attitude they presently have, it seems to me they just polarise themselves further and further from the market on a daily basis. widget2008-01-02 05:12:15

Lets look at this rationally. What CWC is doing is nothing new, its done all over the world. In some European countries retailers get together and place direct bulk orders with manufacturers, they just cut out the distributor, they or the manufacturer still carries the warranty and the customer gets a cheaper product - who cares who imported it.! SA is a free market economy, which basically means anyone can buy anywhere and resell here. Dont believe the c**p about "official" distributors etc, buy where you get the deal you want. The days of distributors in small economies like SA is numbered, just look around you, most of the major retailers import product themselves without going through the appointed distributors, its not "grey" its a "parallell import" (there is a differance) its quite legal and probably exact in every way to the line the "official" importers are selling. Anyway, as an example, are you going to pay 20 K for a plasma screen at an "official distributors shop" or 12k at say HI-FI Corporation for an exact parallell import?? Duuuuuuuh, lets think.!!! Its the same with bicycles and parts.!!