AttieSlabbert

Earlier we talked about where the bikes have been made and who makes them - I think the problem might be with some brands trying to get rich from the sale of 1 or 2 bikes. Let me give you an example; If you can - get the Triathlete magazine from about 3 months ago. In there you will see the Beyond Blink TT bike and the Xlab TT Avenger. And I have the Token TT Momenta. They are all the exact same frames!!!! Check the prices- Beyond - US$8100, the Xlab and Token sell for about US$3000, depending on what components you put on. But a US$5000 difference????? That is what=== R35 000 - For the SAME frame??? How do they justify that? This is not te LBS sales person's fault, so don't shoot the messenger in the bikeshop!!

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I'm sure a lot of you guys know how it works. Usually the frame is designed in America or Canada or Europe, etc. Agents take the design to the different manufacturers in Taiwan and China with what they expect - meaning warranty, quantity, quality, etc. The manufacturer who can give the agent the cheapest price that meets the requirements, gets the deal. Even if the price is only US$1 cheaper than another. Because they're gonna make let's say 50 000 frames that is a huge saving at US$1/frame. That means that some well known frames and parts come from the same machines. Like Oval, certain cervelo parts, Ritchey parts, Profile design, etc. are made at the same plant. And I've heard people explaining how one thing is much better than another, when both are EXACTLY the same. Just a different label. It is all in the eye of the beholder.

If I look on the ads on this page - Edge, Fulcrum, ProLite, Look, Cervelo,Ritchey, Sella Italia, etc. you name it, are made here. But you will not see it on the bikes. Yes it is designed where ever, but then the guys come here for the manufacturing of parts.

OOOPPPSSS - yes sorry HANDMADE in America!!!

I'm still not sure which part of a cannondale is actually MADE in America. I think it might be the spokes, but I'm not sure.

Taiwan about 3 bowls/ rice a day! !!!

Guys and Gals I used to think that most bikes are made in Europe, Canada and America. I've been living in Taiwan now for almost 7 years and are involved in the bike biz. It was a HUGE eye opener for me when I saw the light after a while. The problem about LBS being ignorant or sometimes arrogant and misinforming customers are a global "problem". We walked into a few bikeshops in England last year and started talking about manufacturing. The owner told me - "yes, Taiwan and China are becoming a problem, but we're a shop with integrity, we don't sell anything from there." I looked around and only saw Taiwan frames. Ons is - jy kan maar se uit gegooi daar! And this happened at more than 1 shop.

Ivan, Only give the following info on your ceramic bearings please! density, Vickers hardness, compressive strength and composition. Thanks a lot!

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Ceramic speed -- nice!! Sounds good. I checked the website- couldn't find any info - figures, values - about density, Vickers hardness, compressive strength or composition(silicon nitride balls is that the same as Si3N4 ? ) Can you give us a bit more on that please. Thanks!

Diesel, You can contact Triangle Sports at paul@triangle.cc or 041 581 7990. They have shops in Cape Town and PE and agents are starting to pop up everywhere. Keep me updated. Attie

Hi Johan, Just got the word, the coating we use for the races are CrN/Ti. After all the testing it has never come off or made any indentation. What do you think? Attie

I'm open to be convinced with proof. Until then - I stand!! If we can produce something that is different and that makes a difference, then we are moving forward. Otherwise we're going nowhere. Any ideas? My idea - If we toss the seals and the grease- use Q20 instead and replace the bearings after every race, we got rid of most of the friction. And balance the wheels- I mean really balance and true it!!!! I think you have to decide on what change will make the biggest difference. Is it ceramics, or maybe a more aeroframe or carbon or ....? (for some steel is fine) Or maybe just losing weight. Then you have improved you riding. And that is what we ALL want. Some improvements are free speed- but you have to pay for the improvement. ( I'm afraid to call it an upgrade now!) But it is out there and you can buy it! Another thing also stands- many small improvements add up to a big improvement!!! We do have true ceramic bearings - with ceramic races - but now you're talking big bucks!!

If measuring power output, resistance, hardness and so forth in numbers, is not scientific, then I don't know what is. And even morons know that no pro will ride something that makes him slower. SO all upgrades are a waste of money? Anyone wants a Cervelo? I still have mine- it is for sale. I also have 2 other carbon frames - Oh and an aluminum-carbon one - I'm going retro - steel is the way to go!! I'm dusting off my Western Flyer from way back! I think I'm going to have trouble finding the box rims though. No matter-- my performance will not take a significant dip and I'll have more money to go to races !! On the other hand - it feels GOOD , when you look good on a good looking bike. And that will make you faster!

Hi Johan, "Titanium is softer than steel, so it is a very very poor choice of bearing race material. " Yes - you are right, it is softer than steel. Apparently one of the reasons titanium is used for the races with the ceramic balls is exactly that ! The harder it is the more brittle it becomes. That is the problem. Because the balls are harder and if you use a metal / alloy that is also very hard (steel) - it might break more easily when you hit a pothole or something very hard. So to compensate for that - they tried something else. And because titanium has excellent anti-corrosive properties, it was chosen. It made a difference and it was measured and to say that there is no difference or no advantage to using it, you have to take on the guys who did the tests- like FSA and the German and Belgium magazines. They posted the results and the numbers and like I said earlier you cannot argue with numbers from a fair test. About the non-existent benefits from FSA, you have to tell that to the 10+ Pro Teams in the TdF using FSA parts. If it makes them faster, there must be some benefit for the normal guy on the bike. And that is up to the guy ON the bike to decide. Cheers Attie

I'm not asking anyone to do anything. I simply answered a question and explained my experience with deep section wheels. Have you tried a disc and a 100mm or 85mm wheel yet. Big big difference. If still not convinced - why not go for 2x 50mm rims? But then for how many races a year can you hold your peak form? 5 or 6? Don't think so and when you do want to perform well, you want to be prepared, right? And the second hand sets were new once.

The 85,50mm Wheelset with ceramic bearings and bladed spokes sell for around R8500. You can contact Triangle Sports in Cape Town at 021 706 3977, or in PE at 041 581 7041

Are there no races outside the western cape? Or are you guys afraid to venture out ? You choose your weapons!! I rode an 85mmRr x50mmFr combo at this years Ironman in PE and the wind was blowing from all sides and never - not once had a problem. It wasn't nearly the strongest I've been in I have to admit. But everybody was talking about the wind.

Hi Johan, I had a few people asking me about ceramics so I thought I'll do a search on the internet and see what tests have been done. This is what I've found and I just compared it to the bearings that I have the information of. I'm not saying I can feel the difference. I'm saying that there is a difference and it can be measured according to the studies/ tests done. And for some paople if there is a difference - how minute it might be- they want to use it or get it. So - high or low is not the point - the fact that there is a difference and that it was measured - is my point. Is it big enough to make a difference ? Some will say yes - some no. Will a handlebar that is 20g lighter make a difference when climbing a hill? Personally - I think no - others will argue with me to the death. So - I'm saying that it looks like there is a difference - but is it big enough? That is what every cyclist has to answer for him/herself. Cheers Attie

HI Johan, I agree with some things you said- I mean galvanic current? Magnetics? And hey - if Felt can say that their behind the crank brake calipers will help you corner faster because of a lower centre of gravity, then why not mention stuff like magnetics and currents. But with the hardness and the softer steel races- true -- that is why Token uses Titanium coated races. Weight saving- cyclists spend hundreds of rands to save 5g - 10 g on a derailleur or a handlebar or pedals. So a strand of spaghetti will make a difference to them. Unlike aerodynamics - the resistance is "high" no matter if you're going slow or fast. I've heard people saying that it actually increases the slower you go. The difference can be measured that is why I posted the test results above. There is definitely heat build up in bike wheels and, no, you cannot compare it to turbo chargers or stuff like that. These wheels are powered by human muscles not electricity so a small difference makes a big difference. So you cannot compare these tests to tests done on turbo chargers and their benefits. Like you said a bike is not a turbo charger!! You have to pedal it!! I didn't do the tests - you can go to www.fullspeedahead.com/fly.aspx?layout=product&taxid=420 www.fullspeedahead.com/downloads/Ceramic_InsertBook.pdf and www.velocarbon.com/ceramicbearings.html for their results. Cyclists do feel the difference and the difference can be measured so - there IS a difference. Is the difference enough? That is for you to decide. Is it cost effective - that is the personal part of it - is buying a carbon frame cost effective? ? ? Is paying hundreds or is that thousands of rands more to upgrade to dura ace or campy to save a few grams - worth it? You tell me. Attie

Well if you can do that -- go for it! Why not? Maybe that is what the guys did whose upgrades only lasted 3 rides. Support your local Bearing Man. What do you have to lose? The tests I mentioned earlier was done by guys with nothing to gain or lose and you can't argue with numbers. When your legs are tired - you can argue and keep pushing harder- that's perception. But 2+2 = 4 and that is a cold hard numered fact. And 2 years is a long time in design and industry- think about power meters, HRM, carbon, Titanium, tube shapes for being aero, bike weights, etc. You have to think 3 years ahead to stay WITH the pack!

If you buy the Token Wheelset the difference in price between normal sealed bearings and tiramic bearings is about US$75. FSA- I've seen on the net prices from US$130 to US$180.

Well - he said 2 years ago! A lot has happened in the bike industry in 2 years. A few years ago some "people in the know" said carbon is just a passing fancy and will never be be used on a big scale to make more than a few components. I can think of a few reasons why bearings are shot after only a few rides: not the right size, installed incorrectly, inferior seals, races and cones. Like the guy said- no matter how good the bearings, the moisture will get in there- so why use balls that will corrode in a short time and not balls that will last 10x longer? And standard races with ceramics?! No wonder!! If shimano is not convinced- it means that the difference is there- but how do you convince someone who doesn't want to be convinced - for whatever reason? I don't know. Price - well yes - US$199 is a lot!! Like I said you can compare the above between FSA and Token and decide where the differences are. Token has the upgrade option on wheelsets for about US$75. A lot HAS happened in 2 years!!

Characteristics of Token and FSA Ceramic Bearings Token FSA Composition: Si3N4 Ceramic Balls same Density = 3.2 g/cm3 vs 7.9 for steel 3.2 g/cm3 Vickers Hardness (HV10) = 1700 Kg/mm2 vs 700 for steel -- 1600 Kg/mm2 Bending Strength: 828Mpa ??? Compressive strength: 3500Mpa ??? Resistance: 1014Ω.Cm ??? Tiramic? Bearings are more resistant to corrosion (up to 10x longer according to the salt spray test) because of the Titanium coating. TOKEN uses Titanium coated bearing races & cones and FSA uses steel races solid Ceramic Balls, unlike most of the other large c ompanies who only use SUJ2 cones. Small price!!!!!!!!!!! Very Big Price!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I hope this answers a lot of questions!! Any more questions - feel free to contact me.