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To be fair - by your logic meat should be completely banned. It is responsible for obesity, high cholesterol, increased risk of heart disease, body odour, bad breath, dehydration, gastrointesitnal issues and kidney problems.
Meat consumption makes veganism look positively saintly by comparison.
As with anything - if you do it wrong and/or you're a nutcase/*** parent you'll end up with health issues.
With respect , I disagree with you that meat consumption is responsible for obesity, high cholesterol , heart disease or any of the medical problems you mention .
Maybe eating too much meat might cause those , but eating or drinking too much of almost anything might cause those problems.
I don’t know how you can draw the conclusion that eating meat causes those problems ?
A 14 month old kid weighing in at 5kg. I don't think veganism is the issue there.
Same as this case in Australia.
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/08/22/australia/australia-vegan-baby-intl-hnk-trnd/index.html
4,9kg at 19 months
Being able to drop a log in a flushing toilet is a comparative privilege. That doesn’t mean that veganism is just for the ‘privileged few’ and be rejected as an elitist way of life.
Well ,it might not be exclusively for the "privileged few" that live in an environment were they have access and the means to choose to be vegan .
But it sure does help to be affluent and live in a first world country if you wanna be choosy about what you eat , doesn't it ?
Without getting too ‘woke’, privilege is a spectrum. We all fall on it somewhere and it’s often the more privileged that raise the ‘privilege’ defence.
Not to derail this thread , but being able to read , having electricity and technology to debate on the interwebs AND the free time to do so , and riding bicycles for fun - yes I think we are pretty privileged . And that was not said as a defence - I was pointing out that you are contradicting yourself .
Do you think that your enjoyment is more important than the lives of the animals that have to die for your meals and the effects that it has on planetary health?
I did say it was the short answer . The long answer I have explained in previous posts .
Any person reading this thread can go vegan. Don't build it up in your mind as some 'white privilege' thing. It just isn't. Most of the basic staples are vegan. Fruits 'n veg, grains, etc. You make it as expensive as you want it to be.
When there's a will, there's a way.
You know that every person reading on this thread is actually privileged right ?
Kidding aside, I have lived on a farm almost my whole life ( except school and studies ).
I have raised and slaughtered my own animals , hunted and killed wild animals to eat them and drank milk , made cheese and butter from my own animals my whole life .
I very much agree with you that people should be more aware of where their food comes from , but I don't agree with your view on the nutritional side of being vegan vs being omnivorous.
I am also not in agreement with you that us as humans consuming animal products is the reason our planet is getting f%$ked . That I believe we as humans are doing by other means - mostly population growth ? But that's part of another discussion .
Go to both rural and even more urbanized Vietnam and see what people were traditionally eating. People in rural areas of 3rd world countries aren't gorging on salmon and cream cheese bagels for breakfast or fillet for dinner. The bulk of their diet is plant based.
And again, I'm not speaking to those people.
The question you should rather be asking and answering is "Why am I not vegan, knowing what I know".
The short answer : I enjoy my meat too much 
.
If hypothetical '3rd world baby/toddler and mom' have access to sufficient pre- and post natal medical care, access to sufficient sources of plant based foods and had guidance in feeding that way, I'd support it. If that same hypothetical '3rd world baby/toddler and mom' already lives at risk of food security/malnutrition, then I'd advise them to do what they need to survive.
Either way, the 'what about people in the 3rd world' straw man does not absolve you, me and everyone else reading this who make conscious food choices from looking at their lifestyle and what they can do to reduce their impact.
In what 3rd world country country will a mother and child have access to sufficient sources of plant based foods ?? You’ve got to be kidding right ?
And I live in Africa , if you move anywhere out of your major cities here , you are in the 3rd world . So this is not a “straw man argument “ at all. It’s real.
Any person reading this thread can go vegan. Don't build it up in your mind as some 'white privilege' thing. It just isn't. Most of the basic staples are vegan. Fruits 'n veg, grains, etc. You make it as expensive as you want it to be.
When there's a will, there's a way.
The point I was making was not about people on this thread.
I have been trying to explain in some of my previous posts why the whole world cannot go vegan , and why the human race will always need some type of animal based food.
Is anyone reading this a 3rd world baby or toddler?
Westerners, like you and me, cause much more animal suffering than the majority of people in the 3rd world, who's consumption of animal products typically do not compare to the typical Westerner.
Not really answering my question there , are you ?
Humans tend to feed on carnivores/predators a lot. Think of all those little cans of tuna lining your local Spar and PnP. So much so that we're eating the different species to the brink of extinction. And why do you want to leave the those who eat and kill cats and dogs out of the discussion?
There's no epidemiological data proving that vegans suffer from 'malnutrition'. What do you even mean by that?
The point is that the slaughter is unnecessary for the overwhelming proportion of the population. So, there's no need to desensitize folks to the horrors of animal farming. There is another way.
Would you honestly say that a strict vegan diet for babies and toddlers living in 3rd world countries where people cannot afford any added supplements would be a good thing ??
Humans tend to feed on carnivores/predators a lot. Think of all those little cans of tuna lining your local Spar and PnP. So much so that we're eating the different species to the brink of extinction. And why do you want to leave the those who eat and kill cats and dogs out of the discussion?
There's no epidemiological data proving that vegans suffer from 'malnutrition'. What do you even mean by that?
The point is that the slaughter is unnecessary for the overwhelming proportion of the population. So, there's no need to desensitize folks to the horrors of animal farming. There is another way.
I wouldn't say that humans feed on carnivores " a lot " ? Apart from one or maybe 2 tuna salads a month I cannot think of any other type of carnivore meat I ( and I use myself as a "normal" SA adult here ) eat ?
Then as I've mentioned a few times , to say that " slaughter is unnecessary for the overwhelming proposition of the population " is definitely not true . It is not necessary for a select few of the privileged population is more correct .
What I am not seeing however, is road cycling mentioned at school level, or am I missing things?
I think it's the safety thing ?
Looking at what happened this weekend again at the Bestmed Cansa race , road cycling in SA is becoming a really dangerous sport .
About 2 months before Tankwa this year my old S-Works shoes started tearing ( after about 3 years of proper use ) .
I had a look at the prices , and decided to rather go for the cheaper ( non carbon sole ) version .
The shoes felt fine and did their job , but don't know if it was the terrain of the 2 days prior, or just because the decent after Merino climb is so long , I started feeling that my feet were getting sore on that decent . It started feeling as if the cleats were "pushing" through the soles and like I was almost riding without shoes with my feet on the pedals alone . It got so bad that I had to sit down on my saddle on some sections were I should have been out of the saddle just to give my feet a break .
Got back from Tankwa and went and bought the new S-works shoes .
Koop een keer en koop reg !
Shoes and a saddle are 2 places you don't skimp if you plan on doing long technical rides .
GMO is helping increase the arable number and is the obvious go to if the world starts eating less meat than the current meat supply.
Humans are pretty adaptable and as meat demand decreases I'm re people will find a way to use the old "meat land" profitably...
I agree that humans are adaptable ( suppose that’s why we are on top of the food chain ? ).
The problem is that most people in the world don’t have the luxury of choosing what they want to eat. Their primary concern is to try and get the most nourishment for the small amount of money they have.
They definitely won’t buy a bottle of soy milk if they can get it from their cow for free. Neither will they get some chia seeds to try and replace their eggs that they can get from their chicken.
There are a heck of a lot of people ( 3.2 billion , or 45% of the worlds population in fact -https://www.globalagriculture.org/report-topics/industrial-agriculture-and-small-scale-farming.html ) that live in rural areas. Most of those are subsistent farmers who are just trying to survive.
Now if you do the maths with the amount of arable land available compared to grazing land , it’s easy to work out how many people are reliant on animals for their very survival.
GMO is helping increase the arable number and is the obvious go to if the world starts eating less meat than the current meat supply.
Humans are pretty adaptable and as meat demand decreases I'm re people will find a way to use the old "meat land" profitably...
The data I quoted in the previous post was from 2016 , so gmo had already been used for a while and was therefore included in the numbers. I am sure that with better developed crops you will see improvements, but I doubt they will be double digit type of improvements? But I might be wrong.
Milkman, if I missed your question previously, apologies.
I’ve got some interesting resources on this on my work laptop, but I’m on holiday right now, so no dice.
Suffice to say, there’s no single answer to this and solutions will vary, particularly by region. I know that the UK Vegan Society has a group of folks that help farmers transition from animal ag to something else, usually veganic farming. That being said, solutions in the UK might not be applicable in the Karoo.
As to the Karoo scenario, I don’t have a workeable solution, it’s outside my wheelhouse. If plant farming isn’t feasible, then low impact eco tourism comes to mind.
Ultimately, there will be people who will have to find a new way to utilise their land as the world continues down this path. This kind of transition happened to the breeders of draft horses, manufacturers of typewriters, etc.
Any good businessman/woman needs to understand what the risks are and farmers will need to be ready for what the market will look like in a decade or two.
Thanks Odi , I appreciate you trying to answer that.
I fully understand that times and business change and people have to try and swim with the current to survive.
But this is not a few lantern factories that had to adapt because the light bulb was invented. If almost 90 % of the worlds land area is not suitable for planting crops , and can only be utilized by grazing , you have to admit it’s a bit of a problem for a world of vegans ?
The problem that most vegans have ( and I mean this with respect ) is that they usually live in first world countries - and Also mostly in big cities . They therefore live in a bit of a “bubble” and don’t realize how most people in the world live.
People don’t realize what a privilege it is to be vegan by choice !
Odi , I mentioned the problem regarding arable land and the farmers in the Karoo or similar places earlier , but didn't really get a reply from you , so I will ask you a question regarding it rather .
Seeing that only about 11% of the world's land area is arable ( the rest is not suitable to plant crops ) https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/AG.LND.ARBL.ZS (in SA it's only 10% ) , what would you suggest we do with the land that is not suitable for planting crops ?
In SA 83% of agricultural land is used for grazing . https://www.nda.agric.za/docs/StratPlan07/07sectoral.pdf .
I cannot really see the sheep farmer in the Karoo , or the cattle farmer in the Kalahari , being able to plant soybeans?
Should we therefore just let 80% plus of the worlds land lie idle and remove the people that are currently living there ? They obviously won't be able to even do subsistence farming - seeing that they have to be vegan ?
Animals and the planet in general (but I don't have kids so I shouldn't really care too much about the future world, not my problem!)...
Although I am not full blown vegan I have been vegetarian for a good few years...the weight just dropped off me (was 100kg at my porkiest....just below 80kg now, thanks to cycling AND eating better)....as for unhealthy...I hear that crap quite a bit from my mates...and each time they are told there are a couple of spare bikes in the house...come for a ride and lets see who is unhealthy....I get turned down each time!
I also weighed just over a 100 before I started cycling, and now I am 81 kg's .
I eat some type of meat ( in moderation ) in one of my meals probably 7 days a week .
You don't think your weight loss has a bit more to do with your cycling and eating better ( less sugar or just less in general ) than with being a vegetarian maybe ?
Oh ok. I'm not really rallying hard, I'm just trying to provide some fodder against specious arguments that end up 'and so we should all be vegan.'
I suppose the irony is that folk don't like the idea of killing cows bit are quite happy with the entire destruction of everything that is involved in growing crops? And then the on going poisoning of everything including ironically, us.
There is no free pass when it comes to food production, something dies.
Odinson has said that veganism is an ethical choice and that's the crux of it - it's essentially an emotional choice.
Given that it's so hard to remain healthy long term on it, and make it palatable, it's a real sacrifice. And then it starts becoming a religion.
All the other justifications that go on around it are pretty specious on any investigation.
That's an interesting take on it .
I suppose that's also why some vegans are so vocal ( aggressive almost ) in trying to " convert" the rest of the population ? Without them realising it , it becomes a bit of a religion to them .
There definitely are a lot of parallels that can be drawn between some religious zealots and some vegans .
335 finishers in 2018 vs 425 in 2019
Sjoe those are pretty low numbers 
?
Given that I am more used to Mtb races and their numbers , are those the norm when it comes to road races ? ( I am of course not talking about 94.7 and Argus ) .
Flippet , my palms sweat just watching this on my laptop . I would k@k myself if I had to be a passenger in that car !! That's crazy fast .
Race to the sSun entries 2019
Solo entries - 1616
Team of 2 entries - 368
Team of 4 entries - 66
Relay team of 2 - 68
Relay team of 4. - 9
Total entries. - 2127
The Veganism Thread
in Chit chat
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I think most of those problems are actually caused by over eating ( mostly sugar )and under exercising .