V12man

Better post some links for us non twitterati..

How about a song? "Good Kevin Evans..." To the tune of "Good King Whenceslas" (sp)

Well no - but they are here - I have in addition to me, 3 more (2 internationals) and my partner.

I do know that.... : Well - i did at least try it - should have taken gears along... run out of extended lunchhour after 10.... ok thats my story and I am sticking to it....

What book? Bloody troll..... I should follow my own rules and not feed you lads.... back to normal programming....

Well - everyone operating at a level of say 50 would be a level playing field... but Haematocrit is not the only determinant of the bodies ability to absorb and transport oxygen - there are many others from Haemoglobin levels to lung volumes etc that also affect oxygen transport - and some of these are not so easy to level the playing fields with as haematocrit and haemoglobin - so where do you go with leveling the playing field, and it becomes ridiculous at some point - in any case imho the "leveling the playing field" argument is just a dopers justification for what they do - far better for them to use what they were born with.... let the strongest win...

Couple of mountain climbers have documented levels over 50 - this might be nature or nurture or something else - like I say it's not a normal number - if I saw one over 50 I would probably get the test repeated thinking they had made a mistake....

Well - 50 is the limit UCI has set - never ever seen anyone with a 50 naturally.... they may be out there, but they are few and far between. I have never seen a study on a safe limit - not sure that would pass an ethics comittee as a study proposal - I will ask around in cardiology next time I see someone.

It's ok - Kettle is still fried from 20x3.... :ph34r:

80% will probably cause death by a whole host of other complications - heart will struggle to pump that load for sure - it's going to be thicker than SAE100 gearbox oil, and random clotting and DVT's will be a huge issue - definately not advisable.

And your thoughts on peroxide treatment? #justcurious

My understanding is that they can be sanctioned when the biologicals fall outside the standards that exist if it is not adequately explained/justified. But not presenting any arguement seems shortsighted, although given JCZA's clips from USADA (assunming they apply in SA) seems the code was violated ITO blood doping - although they seem to have found him guilty of the bp anomalies, not the blood doping infraction - perhaps more charges still to come?

So - does not look like they allow a TUE for that - case closed - the question is - in the event this is medically neccesary - how long an interval must exist before they can return to competition?

I have never seen a release from SAIDS that had enough detail in it to know exactly what the issue is - and biological passport related anomalies could land up very complex - especially when combined with known medical treatments that will affect it like transfusions and treatments for sepsis. One would have to build a detailed timeline of medical treatments, medical tests, drugs administered, surgeries, races, and when the drug testing was done (and the anomalies) to see if there is validity in KE's claims (and there may well be (or not))

JC - I am not sure - I read the article someone linked - but I have never seen that done in SA - the little I know about ozone therapy in SA seems like quackery to me mostly - and no transfusions are involved. and it's mostly for cosmetic reasons. But yes - in terms of the WADA code, removing and replacing your own blood is an offence - except if done for medical reasons like dialysis, then it should not be an issue - but I would hesitate to say that "ozonating" blood and replacing it is an approved medical procedure - Kevin's docs would have to explain exactly what was done and why (with Kevins permission) - I don't have access to his medical records, and if I did I would be unable to comment at all.

True - unfortunately there are 15 - 20 year olds who decide to do this themselves and parents who don't notice... and give them enough pocket money to fund it too.... and wonder why their school brings them to an ER when they collapse... liver fried..... amongst other issues... Coaches and parents who peddle peds to their kids are worse than criminals - medeival (sp?) torture is too easy a punishment for them.

Ozone treatment - in my opinion it's similar to snake oil - there are no ozone treatment machines that I am aware of in any ER I work in - it's very much regarded as complimentary medicine - perhaps useful in some things, but if you need more oxygen in the tissues, then pure oxygen via a mask works pretty well - and in any case will NOT raise the levels of Hb etc at all - you need EPO or sustained LOW 02 levels to do that (which works via the natural verson of epo anyway) HGH as a therapy has a place for sure in the treatment of certain medical conditions, (cosmetic and othewise) but I certainly don't believe there is abslutely no risk attatched to it's use - especially during unqualified and unmanaged treatment - I suspect that any Vet that actually uses it knows full well they are cheating - and I make no comment on their morals that allow this - clearly I don't believe that it's medically advisable - perhaps when I am 20 years older I might change my mind. Let me place on record I am rabidly against PEDS use for non medical teatments, and if you want to make me angry let me meet the people who supply non pharmaceutical and veterinary grade steroids to schoolkids (and this is a HUGE problem, both in SA and worldwide - compared to this, doping in cycling is a trivial problem....) Now I am off to breathe deeply and try to get my BP down - just thinking about kids steroid useage has annoyed me badly (again).

I would be interested to know what this "meeting" was about and exactly who was involved in this potential conspiracy of silence.... - mentioned in one of the clippings earlier.... If I had to translate between the lines it sounded like "Why are you blabbing about this? you agreed to be silent on the subject in the meeting, so we don't impact our sponsor/supporter deals" to me...

From memory - EPO (from the pharmacy) is about 1800 a month for therapeutic doses - and that is manageable for most well to do vets - HGH on the other hand is much more expensive - MUCH. And you are absolutely correct that the barriers to doping for Vets that are already sucessful in business are low - financially fairly low (monthly or long term if you get caught), and unless you are standing on the podium for a major race, then really unlikely to be tested at all. Still - the issues around applying for a KE TUE for ozone therapy are at best dodgy - Ozone is not even on the restricted list - http://list.wada-ama.org/by-substance/#O-group - so why even apply for a TUE - clearly you don't need a TUE for what is not restricted - nor will they even issue one.

Ramping it up for Friday is good....

What you say is true in a certain sense - you have to use a comparable MAX effort from all participants in the test (and an appropriate test) - so during a race you cannot guarantee the efforts will be max efforts - and you don't know on STRAVA either - but as a general rule - guys that are consistently winning STRAVA kom's are generally capable of winning races (this does not mean they will win races as there are other elements to racing like team strategy, pacing, nutrition, etc etc) There is some science too that has shown that speed over shorter distances predicts marathon performance with a high degree of accuracy for example, and there is no doubt that this is consistent even across some different sports - so for example 400m times might be able to be compared to cycling performance capability. I would however not reccomend using mid race strava segments to predict max performance - clearly they are unlikely to be absolute max efforts.

Tumbles brother newds to do some homework on ozone therapy and ts acceptance in conventional medicine... I thought KE had just made a typo and he was referring to the blood transfusions - I should pay closer attention sometimes - my BS alarm should go off faster.

But we have Jeroen... pay attention man... wait - dont think he will/can prescribe anything that will get your newly skinny ass on a bike...

Sorry - I differ on this - scientist do agree that measured performance does predict performance capability

EPO is cheap too... less than my monthly coffee bill... #justsaying.... actually its about the same - but I choose coffee... tastes better. Anyone who can afford a 6 figure bike can fund an epo habit pretty easily if they can get a script - in fact their medical aid might well pay for it too.