scotty Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 Excluding the he said/she said its down to disputed bum cream and 99 results.
TNT1 Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) Excluding the he said/she said its down to disputed bum cream and 99 results. You can't exclude the hearsay. As is documented, the USADA has handed down suspensions and bans (often retro-actively) for doping violations based on anecdotal evidence and hearsay - the precedent has been set. The noose as far as I can see is still firmly around Lance's leftover nut. Edited February 9, 2012 by TNT1
fandacious Posted February 9, 2012 Author Posted February 9, 2012 (edited) To totally throw the cat among the pigeons, do you even need to dope to win the Tour de France? Yes, your team will need to. The winner only rides in real anger for 2 to 3 hours in the race, the rest of the time, he gets pulled along. LA was the master of strategy and intelligent riding. I believe that it is possible. Maybe even, he pretended to dope to get his team buy in so they would do it for him. I can believe he would be clever/devious enough to do that. The facts stand, that he never tested positive. The only evidence is a hearsay from bunch of guys already caught doping after also lying about it repeatedly (somewhat lacking is their own integrity already). This theory is the only one that fits the evidence and is reasonably credible in my opinion. Ironically, that could make him guilty of the US Federal charges of misusing public money, but not guilty of doping. I find it difficult to believe that every single person is on the take from one athlete, he does not have that much money. a tongue in cheek article, but pretty accurate - http://www.theonion.com/articles/nondoping-cyclists-finish-tour-de-france,2268/ more factually: Armstrong’s TdF Victories Just sayin… 19991. Lance Armstrong2. Alex Zülle (‘98 busted for EPO)3. Fernando Escartín (Systematic team doping exposed in ‘04)4. Laurent Dufaux (‘98 busted for EPO)5. Ángel Casero (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto) 20001. Lance Armstrong2. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)3. Joseba Beloki (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)4. Christophe Moraue (‘98 busted for EPO)5. Roberto Heras (‘05 busted for EPO) 20011. Lance Armstrong2. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)3. Joseba Beloki (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)4. Andrei Kivilev5. Igor González de Galdeano (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto) 20021. Lance Armstrong2. Joseba Beloki (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)3. Raimondas Rumšas (Suspended in ‘03 for doping)4. Santiago Botero (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)5. Igor González de Galdeano (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto) 20031. Lance Armstrong2. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)3. Alexander Vinokourov (Suspended in ‘07 for CERA)4. Tyler Hamilton (Suspended ‘04 for blood doping)5. Haimar Zubeldia 20041. Lance Armstrong2. Andreas Kloden (Named in doping case in ‘08)3. Ivan Basso (Suspended in ‘07 for Operacion Puerto ties)4. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)5. Jose Azevedo (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto) 20051. Lance Armstrong2. Ivan Basso (Suspended in ‘07 for Operacion Puerto ties)3. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)4. Fransico Mancebo (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)5. Alexander Vinokourov (Suspended in ‘07 for CERA) Edited February 9, 2012 by fandacious
fandacious Posted February 9, 2012 Author Posted February 9, 2012 You can't exclude the hearsay. As is documented, the USADA has handed down suspensions and bans (often retro-actively) for doping violations based on anecdotal evidence and hearsay - the precedent has been set. The noose as far as I can see is still firmly around Lance's leftover nut. Uncle pat will **** kittens if USADA/WADA touch his ex-golden boy...
SwissVan Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 Because Lance and Frankie rode and doped on the same teams together? Did Frankie ever admit he and LA doped together or is his (FA's) accusations based on what the overheard in the hospital room?I think he admitted to doping before he rode with LA?
scotty Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 You can't exclude the hearsay. As is documented, the USADA has handed down suspensions and bans (often retro-actively) for doping violations based on anecdotal evidence and hearsay - the precedent has been set. The noose as far as I can see is still firmly around Lance's leftover nut.If only, if only....someone had kept a needle/vial plastic bag with LA's finger print on, the contents which could easily have been analyzed. Kept a recorded conversation where LA was arranging fresh batches of dope (i'm sure that UK news tabloid who hacked peoples phones and recorded their conversation could have helped), taken video footage showing LA in dark glasses and a trenchcoat meeting seedy characters in dark alleys....if only....if only.
TNT1 Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 a tongue in cheek article, but pretty accurate - http://www.theonion....de-france,2268/ more factually: Armstrong’s TdF Victories Just sayin… 19991. Lance Armstrong2. Alex Zülle (‘98 busted for EPO)3. Fernando Escartín (Systematic team doping exposed in ‘04)4. Laurent Dufaux (‘98 busted for EPO)5. Ángel Casero (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto) 20001. Lance Armstrong2. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)3. Joseba Beloki (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)4. Christophe Moraue (‘98 busted for EPO)5. Roberto Heras (‘05 busted for EPO) 20011. Lance Armstrong2. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)3. Joseba Beloki (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)4. Andrei Kivilev5. Igor González de Galdeano (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto) 20021. Lance Armstrong2. Joseba Beloki (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)3. Raimondas Rumšas (Suspended in ‘03 for doping)4. Santiago Botero (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)5. Igor González de Galdeano (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto) 20031. Lance Armstrong2. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)3. Alexander Vinokourov (Suspended in ‘07 for CERA)4. Tyler Hamilton (Suspended ‘04 for blood doping)5. Haimar Zubeldia 20041. Lance Armstrong2. Andreas Kloden (Named in doping case in ‘08)3. Ivan Basso (Suspended in ‘07 for Operacion Puerto ties)4. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)5. Jose Azevedo (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto) 20051. Lance Armstrong2. Ivan Basso (Suspended in ‘07 for Operacion Puerto ties)3. Jan Ullrich (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)4. Fransico Mancebo (‘06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)5. Alexander Vinokourov (Suspended in ‘07 for CERA) You're missing that Kivilev rode for Festina '98/99 - dunno if that's relevant, it should be.
scotty Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 I recall during one of LA's TDF races, the paperazi were found rifling through the garbage outside the place LA was staying, some would claim they were looking for dope evidence, i think they were just peckish and were looking for something to eat.
TNT1 Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 (i'm sure that UK news tabloid who hacked peoples phones and recorded their conversation could have helped) As a side note, do you know how they "hacked" those phones? You know how you can dial your cellular voicemail box from any phone, key in your pin, and listen to your messages? That's all they did, and because most people don't change their standard pin, or change it to something stupid like 1234, or some such, it was as easy as taking candy from a baby to break into people's mailboxes.
scotty Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 As a side note, do you know how they "hacked" those phones? You know how you can dial your cellular voicemail box from any phone, key in your pin, and listen to your messages? That's all they did, and because most people don't change their standard pin, or change it to something stupid like 1234, or some such, it was as easy as taking candy from a baby to break into people's mailboxes. I better change mine
Tumbleweed Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 Did Frankie ever admit he and LA doped together or is his (FA's) accusations based on what the overheard in the hospital room?I think he admitted to doping before he rode with LA? Some is based on what he learnt being in team with him. Remember this: Pretty much the grand climax of the Walsh book. If you haven't already, you can just read the IM here: http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/lan...ntmessage.html An instant message between Frankie Andreu (FDREU) and Jonathan Vaughters (Cyclevaughters) the morning of July 26, 2005. Cyclevaughters: frankie - hey - thanks for talking the other day FDREU: no problem, where are you Cyclevaughters: back in CO FDREU: nice, I just got home, isnt' it like 5AM Cyclevaughters: sometimes i think i'm going to go nuts Cyclevaughters: yeah Cyclevaughters: it's 5am FDREU: I agree, I came home and the air conditioning is broken Cyclevaughters: ouch FDREU: did your kid grow twice it's size in the two weeks you were gone Cyclevaughters: yeah, his feet look bigger for some eason FDREU: funny Cyclevaughters: anyhow, i never can quite figure out why i don't just play along with the lance crowd - i mean **** it would make my life easier, eh? it's not like i never played with hotsauce, eh? FDREU: I know, but in the end i don't think it comes back to bite you FDREU: I play along, my wife does not, and Lance hates us both FDREU: it's a no win situation, you know how he is. Once you leave the team or do soemthing wrong you forever banned Cyclevaughters: i suppose - you know he tried to hire me back in 2001... he was nice to me... i just couldn't deal with that whole world FDREU: I did not know that FDREU: look at why everyone leaves, it's way to controlling Cyclevaughters: once I went to CA and saw that now all the teams got 25 injections every day Cyclevaughters: hell, CA was ZERO FDREU: you mean all the riders Cyclevaughters: Credit Agricole FDREU: it's crazy Cyclevaughters: So, I realized lance was full of **** when he'd say everyone was doing it FDREU: You may read stuff that i say to radio or press, praising the Tour and lance but it's just playing the game Cyclevaughters: believe me, as carzy as it sounds - Moreau was on nothing. Hct of 39% FDREU: when in 2000-2001 Cyclevaughters: so, that's when you start thinking... hell, kevin was telling me that after 2000 Ullrich never raced over 42%--- yeah moreau in 2000-2001 Cyclevaughters: anyhow - whtever FDREU: After 1999, you know many things changed. lance did not FDREU: I believe that's part of whey kevin left, he was tired of the stuff Cyclevaughters: yeah, i could explain the whole way lance dupes everyone FDREU: what abut GH climbing the mountains better than azevedo and the entire group Cyclevaughters: from how floyd described it, i know exactly the methos FDREU: explain that, classics to climber FDREU: when did you talk with floyd Cyclevaughters: i don't know - i want to trust George Cyclevaughters: but the thing is on that team, you think it's normal Cyclevaughters: or at least i did FDREU: i guess. anything with blodd is not normal Cyclevaughters: yeah, it's very complex how the avoid all the controls now, but it's not any new drug or anything, just the resources and planning to pull of a well devised plan Cyclevaughters: it's why they all got dropped on stage 9 - no refill yet - then on the rest day - boom 800ml of packed cells FDREU: they have it mastered. good point Cyclevaughters: they draw the blood right after the dauphine FDREU: how do they sneak it in, or keep it until needed FDREU: i'm sure it's not with the truck in the frig Cyclevaughters: motorcycle - refridgerated panniers Cyclevaughters: on the rest day Cyclevaughters: floyd has a photo of the thing FDREU: crazy! it' just keep going to new levels Cyclevaughters: yeah, it's complicated, but with enough money you can do it FDREU: they have enough money. Floyd was so pissed at them this entire tour Cyclevaughters: anyhow - i just feel sorry for floyd and some of the other guys Cyclevaughters: why would lance keep doing the **** when he clearly has nothing to prove - it's weird FDREU: I know. me to. they all get ripped into for no reason FDREU: he's done now, thank god. but they will prove next year for Johan's sake that they are the greatest Cyclevaughters: and then lance says " this guy and that guys are pussies" FDREU: they won't stop FDREU: I agree
Tumbleweed Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 I recall during one of LA's TDF races, the paperazi were found rifling through the garbage outside the place LA was staying, some would claim they were looking for dope evidence, i think they were just peckish and were looking for something to eat. Journos are poorly paid, you know!
scotty Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 Journos are poorly paid, you know!You should know
TNT1 Posted February 9, 2012 Posted February 9, 2012 Cyclevaughters: believe me, as carzy as it sounds - Moreau was on nothing. Hct of 39% With the way Moreau rode the last couple of seasons, I reckon his Hct is a tad higher these days.
fandacious Posted February 9, 2012 Author Posted February 9, 2012 With the way Moreau rode the last couple of seasons, I reckon his Hct is a tad higher these days. or everyones is lower
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