Another Red Robot complaint

[javadude]

 

 

"Oops, looks like widget and i read the same books, but this is what i was going to say:"

 

I'm also one for obeying the law. There is an interesting theory known as the "Broken Window" theory that apparently helped New York clean up its act. If we don't start taking control of the lawlessness in this country its going to spiral out of control' date=' if it hasn't already.

 

Go read about it, kind of makes sense(for those of us that still have it).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixing_Broken_Windows

 

[/quote']velo2008-02-22 04:09:40

[bob_the_builder]

 

If you allow small violations to go unpunished just because they are minor' date=' it breeds an enviroment of contempt for the law, and people will push the envelope as far as possible, after all define "small violation".

 

We need a clean up like they did in New York in the 90 s - it was dubbed the "broken window" action.

Previously Tmes Square was a hell hole, of pimps, escourt palours, strip joints and kids selling crack cocaine on street corners, it was hardly a place of tourism.

 

Mayor Guillani put his foot down and said, "Right, thats it, if you break the law, you will be arrested and prosecuted, no exceptions.

The implication was that even if you committed a crime as minor as breaking a window, you will be prosecuted.

 

The police took up the challenge and it worked. Today Times square is a great tourist attraction, its safe, its fine for families to stroll around in (you wont be accosted by a pimp or a "pavement worker") and to this day, the police maintain law and order, jumping the underground without paying your $2.00 ticket will get you a night in jail, thats how serious they are.

 

The problem here is, people KNOW FULL WELL THEY CAN GET AWAY WITH IT - so of course they will do it. Start prosecuting and jailing cyclists for jumping lights, and it will soon stop.

 

..............and dont cry, thats using too much force, its not, the law is the law, stick to it or face the unpleasant consequences.

  

[/quote']

 

Widget, I agree with your sentiment, BUT, where should we start enforcing the law?  With policemen at every traffic light, jailing cyclists that transgress, or with proper reaction forces that are apprehending people spraying stray bullets around and killing innocent children?

 

The police have a limited amount of resources.  Certainly not enough resources to cope with everything from Nigerian Drug Lords in Hillbrow, down to jay-walkers.

 

Do you believe it is adequate that there is a policeman on every corner, exercising the letter of the law and arresting cyclists, yet when an innocent girl is shot there is not enough man-power to catch these purpetrators.

 

Let's go through the list of everyday crimes:

Nigerian drug rings.

Chinese triads.

Cash in transit heists

Armed robberies.

Rape and abuse of women and children.

People being shot in their workplace (happened in my office this year).

ATM bombings - happening every single day.

Massive credit card skimming and fraud.

Hijacking.

It's very easy to sit in an ivory tower, and tell everyone that the law is the law, and that these cyclists must be arrested.  But it all boils down to a resourcing issue and the 80/20 principle.

Quite frankly, with the amount of time and effort that is spent on these forums going on and on about cyclists going through red lights (not that I condone breaking the law, I just believe the time and effortis misplaced) I think these efforts could beput to better use.

 

Bruce, I agree that the police have limited resources and need to prioritise their man-power usage. The point is if we keep breaking lesser laws, aren't we in fact contributing to their problem? If they have to supervise the speed we drive, if we stop at red lights and stop signs in our cars, not to mention our bikes, aren't we keeping them away from doing some better good somewhere else? Remember, the police have to try and enforce all the laws. Same as we are supposed to try and keep all the laws.

 

[widget]

I dont have an issue with your points Bruce, I well understand the resource and manpower issue the police have.

But, how can ever move forward if there are always excuses, how can we ever say, this has to change, if we keep moving the goal posts, how can we ever have a law abiding society (which EVERYONE wants and harps on about at length - just read the I am emigrating due to crime posts) if we dont try and start somewhere.??

 

You know the old saying "The journey of 1000 miles starts with the first step."

 

If we cant look to the police to keep law, (as you point out and I agree), then WE must police ourselves, or else, in my opinion, we are just as bad as any Nigerian drug lord.

 

I dont think its a waste of time discussing it either, the more its brought out and the more folk made aware "THAT IT IS AN ISSUE" possibly, the sooner we will have a more law abiding society.

 

 

[controlc]

Slightly off topic:

http://my.telegraph.co.uk/peter_dtm/february_2008/miss_carriage_of_justice.htm

 

A female driver is going to jail after hitting a cyclist who jumped a red traffic light.

 

Personally, I'd jail her for not killing the cyclist...

[bruce]

Bruce' date=' I agree that the police have limited resources and need to prioritise their man-power usage. The point is if we keep breaking lesser laws, aren't we in fact contributing to their problem? If they have to supervise the speed we drive, if we stop at red lights and stop signs in our cars, not to mention our bikes, aren't we keeping them away from doing some better good somewhere else? Remember, the police have to try and enforce all the laws. Same as we are supposed to try and keep all the laws.
[/quote']

 

I think the general consensus is that these laws are not being enforced which gets to the fundamental issue that if laws can be broken with little or no consequence then people will break them.

 

[scotty]

Widget i agree with you that peoples habits need to change, but we have had marches, protests etc but so long as there is no consequences for action the behavioral patterns wont change.

[FlyingCheetah]

 

I think the general consensus is that these laws are not being enforced which gets to the fundamental issue that if laws can be broken with little or no consequence then people will break them.

 

 

And that's why Taxis keeps driving in the yellow lane, overtaking us that also want to get home and stuffup the traffic flow when they get back into the queue. But WTF, we live in SA. What a glorious country!

 

[bob_the_builder]

 

Widget i agree with you that peoples habits need to change' date=' but we have had marches, protests etc but so long as there is no consequences for action the behavioral patterns wont change. [/quote']

 

Scotty, all the marchers and bumper stickers and petitions in the land wont help. The only consequence any should need as motivation to do what is right, is the generation that comes behind us. You don't even have to have your own kids to know that the example you set today is exponentially multiplied as the behaviour in the tomorrow's generation. Your own conscience should motivate you.

 

 

 

[widget]

I know there are people (even on this board) who will read these posts, "ignore the sentiment" pooh - pooh the theory behind it and continue jumping lights and stop streets because it suits them.!

 

Thats just a forgone fact, we all know it. Nothing we can do.

 

............so you may ask, "why continue with the discussion" - well, its because I believe most people are inherently honest and want to obey the law as it stands, sometimes, just sometimes they get a little sidetracked by those who dont have the same objectives and if we can show they are NOT the majority, we will have won the battle.

 

.........or dont you agree.?

     

widget2008-02-22 04:34:06

[Flemish Lion]

I'm not sure here in SA, but e.g. in Belgium a pedestrian, cyclist ? are considered as ?weak? road users and are often in their ?right?. My brothers brakes on his bike once failed (in Belgium) and he flew into a car window as he was coming from a little side street and the poor lady was responsible ? silly but true! The law protects the ?weaker? road users ?<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

[bruce]

But' date=' how can ever move forward if there are always excuses, how can we ever say, this has to change, if we keep moving the goal posts, how can we ever have a law abiding society (which EVERYONE wants and harps on about at length - just read the I am emigrating due to crime posts) if we dont try and start somewhere.??

 

You know the old saying "The journey of 1000 miles starts with the first step."

 

[/quote']

 

My belief is that whilst it is a step, there are much more effective ones that can be taken.

 

I must say - I'm getting a little annoyed with the common theme in these topics attacking cyclists - just see the post above advocating that the driver should have killed the cyclists.

 

Bottom line: cyclist does something wrong or breaks the law, cyclist get's badly injured or even killed.  Motorist does something wrong or breaks the law, cyclist get's badly injured or even killed.

 

Yesterday I was almost taken out by an oncoming car overtaking on a solid white line, who then had the audacity to show the middle finger on the way past.  Is this acceptable, absolutely not!!  But it seems that the justification on these forums is that cyclists deserve what they get because they are a bunch of lawless idiots.  Well, of all the times I have nearly been taken out, not one of them has been when I was doing something wrong!!

 

Most cyclists do actually stop, or virtually stop at red robots.  The problem is that they go again before it has turned green.  There are actually some pretty good safety reasons for this - having to do with speed differentials.  Have you ever tried clipping in when cars around you are pulling off when the robot turns green?  Now, the counter argument will be - wait for the cars to go.  Cool, but I have just as much right to be on the road as they do.  Are cars happy with cyclists wobbling around in the middle of the road trying to clip in while they are wanting to pull off? 

 

Cyclists seem to have this inferiority complex that tells them they don't belong on the road, that they should endanger themselves before antagonising motorists. 

[scotty]

Widget i agree with you that peoples habits need to change' date=' but we have had marches, protests etc but so long as there is no consequences for action the behavioral patterns wont change. [/quote']

Scotty, all the marchers and bumper stickers and petitions in the land wont help. The only consequence any should need as motivation to do what is right, is the generation that comes behind us. You don't even have to have your own kids to know that the example you set today is exponentially multiplied as the behaviour in the tomorrow's generation. Your own conscience should motivate you.

100% agree but (generalising) most dont.

[bob_the_builder]

 

 

Bottom line: cyclist does something wrong or breaks the law' date=' cyclist get's badly injured or even killed.  Motorist does something wrong or breaks the law, cyclist get's badly injured or even killed.

 

Yesterday I was almost taken out by an oncoming car overtaking on a solid white line, who then had the audacity to show the middle finger on the way past.  Is this acceptable, absolutely not!!  But it seems that the justification on these forums is that cyclists deserve what they get because they are a bunch of lawless idiots.  Well, of all the times I have nearly been taken out, not one of them has been when I was doing something wrong!!

 

Most cyclists do actually stop, or virtually stop at red robots.  The problem is that they go again before it has turned green.  There are actually some pretty good safety reasons for this - having to do with speed differentials.  Have you ever tried clipping in when cars around you are pulling off when the robot turns green?  Now, the counter argument will be - wait for the cars to go.  Cool, but I have just as much right to be on the road as they do.  Are cars happy with cyclists wobbling around in the middle of the road trying to clip in while they are wanting to pull off? 

 [/quote']

 

Ok, so I do actually agree with you here. I don't know about most cyclists, but if you do stop and need to move off sooner than the robot tells you to in the interest of self preservation, then ok, you make a fair case for breaking the law. I have the same issues if I am in my car late at night or in the early hours of the morning in a particularly remote or deserted area. I feel unsafe if I stop for too long, and if it is safe to do so, I'll move off, and that's a battle I'll see out in court if I have to.

[Bateleur1]

The problem with South African culture is that as long as we are not held liable, we will do as we please.  We know what is right and what is wrong.  Most of us know what the laws are.  Why do we have to wait for the police to force them onto us?  Quite quick to say that the police should concentrate on the big issues.  It would practical to do so if we do our part and not transgress on the small issues.

[bruce]

The problem with South African culture is that as long as we are not held liable' date=' we will do as we please.  We know what is right and what is wrong.  Most of us know what the laws are.  Why do we have to wait for the police to force them onto us?  Quite quick to say that the police should concentrate on the big issues.  It would practical to do so if we do our part and not transgress on the small issues.[/quote']

 

Not just South African culture - it's a human phenomenon.  Civilisation is a very thin layer which is quickly removed when laws are removed.  What was that set work book?  "Lord of the Flies" I think.

 

Plenty of youth problems in countries like the UK where the law has become virtually powerless against underage offenders.

bruce2008-02-22 04:57:25

[noembus]

Bruce, thanks, you get the point, they always complaining of things that can not be controlled, and will prob never be, and if somebody doesnt stop at a red right, then let the cyclist life with it. No lets al go and practise harder. And lets all enjoy the weekends race, hope its not raining, otherwise we are gonna get real wet stopping at all the robots