ChrisF Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 IMHO a dietician is not gonna tell you much more than you can learn from doing proper research on the internet. Many dieticians I have talked to are also still old-school in the sense that they still believe in the 'eat low fat' lie. ..... The internet is probably the most dangerous place to do research - especially when it gets to "food" and health. Just way too many "fanatics" out there. The really sad part is that MOST of what you read is PARTLY TRUE .... the problem is in figuring out what is applicable to to "YOU" As an EXAMPLE : "Low fat" .... it most certainly is NOT a "lie". it is a VERY real thing, for a large portion of the population. BUT, it certainly is NOT applicable to everybody. A DECENT dietitian will consult you after seeing your blood tests and getting input from a refering doctor. If you can just walk in and get "general feedback", uh ja ,, just keep walking ...
Ettas Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 Ya sure thing! There are websites that state that vaccines are 'dangerous' and websites with 'scientific proof' the world is flat. The person who was educated and studied science that was peer reviewed over and over again, is fairly trusted IMO. Would you rather go to a heart surgeon, or get your wife to google it? The food industry as a whole is rotten. Go and ask anyone from the ADSA who their sponsors are, which includes Kellogs, Nestle and Unilever. The SA heart and Stroke Foundation's main sponsor is a company that fabricates sunflower oil and margarine. Do you think they will give you credible information? The nutrition congress at which our dietary guidelines discussed and updated is sponsored by the South African Sugar Association, Kellogs, Unilever, GSK and a few other companies. Do you think those guidelines are a reflection of healthy eating or of what big corporates want us to eat? https://therussells.crossfit.com/2017/01/05/big-food-vs-tim-noakes-the-final-crusade/ This article will shed some light on what I am trying to say. Peer-reviewed means f-all if there is money involved. Not saying dietitians don't know what they are doing, but it does help to do some of your own research before you go and see one.
Fat Boab Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 The food industry as a whole is rotten. Go and ask anyone from the ADSA who their sponsors are, which includes Kellogs, Nestle and Unilever. The SA heart and Stroke Foundation's main sponsor is a company that fabricates sunflower oil and margarine. Do you think they will give you credible information? The nutrition congress at which our dietary guidelines discussed and updated is sponsored by the South African Sugar Association, Kellogs, Unilever, GSK and a few other companies. Do you think those guidelines are a reflection of healthy eating or of what big corporates want us to eat? https://therussells.crossfit.com/2017/01/05/big-food-vs-tim-noakes-the-final-crusade/ This article will shed some light on what I am trying to say. Peer-reviewed means f-all if there is money involved. Not saying dietitians don't know what they are doing, but it does help to do some of your own research before you go and see one. So if I can ask, do you read any peer-reviewed literature at all?
Ettas Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 So if I can ask, do you read any peer-reviewed literature at all?You may. Yes I do. I am a mechanical engineer. I understand university research works. I have read peer reviewed articles regarding nutrition. It is something that interests me. Why do you ask?
Fat Boab Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 You may. Yes I do. I am a mechanical engineer. I understand how post-grad studies work. I have read peer reviewed articles regarding nutrition. It is something that interests me. Why do you ask? I ask to understand the context of your comments. So do you have direct experience of publishing peer-reviewed papers? And specific experience of your comment "Peer-reviewed means f-all if there is money involved." related to either your own field or nutrition? Edit: please see post #343 as a replacement for this.
Puncture Kid Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 Ya sure thing! There are websites that state that vaccines are 'dangerous' and websites with 'scientific proof' the world is flat. The person who was educated and studied science that was peer reviewed over and over again, is fairly trusted IMO. Would you rather go to a heart surgeon, or get your wife to google it? So you compare weight loss to heart surgery? Please... My point is that many of the peer reviews are tainted. Do your reading. Yes there is a lot of **** info on the internet. But doing proper research knowing your own body will yield something that works for you. The internet is probably the most dangerous place to do research - especially when it gets to "food" and health. Just way too many "fanatics" out there. The really sad part is that MOST of what you read is PARTLY TRUE .... the problem is in figuring out what is applicable to to "YOU" As an EXAMPLE : "Low fat" .... it most certainly is NOT a "lie". it is a VERY real thing, for a large portion of the population. BUT, it certainly is NOT applicable to everybody. A DECENT dietitian will consult you after seeing your blood tests and getting input from a refering doctor. If you can just walk in and get "general feedback", uh ja ,, just keep walking ...Yes you have to find what works for you.But you are going to have to find it out for yourself. By trying different things and observing the results. No dietician is gonna tell you anything new. For research, I am not referring to (fake) news sites etc. with the usual bull**** articles. I refer to online communities that have proper first-hand empirical evidence of what combos work for the various members. Use this as a starting point. Sure, consulting a professional to help you interpret your bloodwork is important and helping you track progress, yes. But for dietary advice, not really. I still maintain that most of the low-fat products on the markets are bad for you and do not work. Watch the sugar movie if you have not already. So we gonna have to differ on opinion on low-fat. The food industry as a whole is rotten. Go and ask anyone from the ADSA who their sponsors are, which includes Kellogs, Nestle and Unilever. The SA heart and Stroke Foundation's main sponsor is a company that fabricates sunflower oil and margarine. Do you think they will give you credible information? The nutrition congress at which our dietary guidelines discussed and updated is sponsored by the South African Sugar Association, Kellogs, Unilever, GSK and a few other companies. Do you think those guidelines are a reflection of healthy eating or of what big corporates want us to eat? https://therussells.crossfit.com/2017/01/05/big-food-vs-tim-noakes-the-final-crusade/ This article will shed some light on what I am trying to say. Peer-reviewed means f-all if there is money involved. Not saying dietitians don't know what they are doing, but it does help to do some of your own research before you go and see one. Thank you... at last someone who gets it.
Fat Boab Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 I ask to understand the context of your comments. So do you have direct experience of publishing peer-reviewed papers? And specific experience of your comment "Peer-reviewed means f-all if there is money involved." related to either your own field or nutrition? OK, on reflection I withdraw these questions. Let me replace them with some which are intended to suggest a way-forward for Isetech around diet/nutritionists (which is after all the intent of this thread). So here it is: based on your perception and/or understanding of Isetech's history so far, do you think he should do his own google research, consult a dietician/nutrionist, carry-on as is, or a.n.other?
Ettas Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 I ask to understand the context of your comments. So do you have direct experience of publishing peer-reviewed papers? And specific experience of your comment "Peer-reviewed means f-all if there is money involved." related to either your own field or nutrition? I have direct experience of the process. I know that when an article is reviewed, a person often does so not even knowing who the author of the article is. I understand and believe that it is an independent way of doing research, but when the same big companies sponsor the same types of research all over the world, it is a different story. The entire world is fatter and sicker than ever before and there is a reason for it. If you follow peer reviewed advice in South Africa regarding nutrition, where would that leave you? I only said it means f-all when there is money involved. I did not accuse anyone of being untruthful.
Puncture Kid Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 I have direct experience of the process. I know that when an article is reviewed, a person often does so not even knowing who the author of the article is. I understand and believe that it is an independent way of doing research, but when the same big companies sponsor the same types of research all over the world, it is a different story. The entire world is fatter and sicker than ever before and there is a reason for it. If you follow peer reviewed advice in South Africa regarding nutrition, where would that leave you? I only said it means f-all when there is money involved. I did not accuse anyone of being untruthful. As far as I 'know', SA in general, has based most of our collective dietary 'knowledge' on what the Yanks have 'researched'. And unless you live under a rock, you would know that US industries are some of the most corrupt there is. But the important point is to do what you feel you have to. But if you follow a plan correctly and it doesn't yield results, you need to start asking questions and change your plan. Purely based on my experience, to lose weight, I don't believe that you need to starve yourself. I also don't believe that the kCal in/out is the only thing you must look at. I think that weight-loss is multi-faceted and very different on a person to person basis. Hence you need to be open minded and try different ideas even if those ideas go against conventional 'wisdom'. Have a look at r/keto on Reddit for some real-world people sharing success stories and fails.
Ettas Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 OK, on reflection I withdraw these questions. Let me replace them with some which are intended to suggest a way-forward for Isetech around diet/nutritionists (which is after all the intent of this thread). So here it is: based on your perception and/or understanding of Isetech's history so far, do you think he should do his own google research, consult a dietician/nutrionist, carry-on as is, or a.n.other?I believe he should do both. Go to a dietitian armed with knowledge or at least questions. One thing I will not budge on is the fact that sugar and processed foods are bad for you. If a dietitian tells you to eat sugar laden low-fat foods, run for the hills. Please don't get me wrong here, I am not saying a diet in which fat is restricted is good or bad for you, because everyone is different, but we restrict fat by eating real food, not by eating crap food of which the fat has been removed. A good rule of thumb is that if you do not know what any of the ingredients on the food label is, don't eat it. Isetech should get a good dietitian that prescribes real food and has a simple plan that he can stick to
Fat Boab Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 I believe he should do both. Go to a dietitian armed with knowledge or at least questions. One thing I will not budge on is the fact that sugar and processed foods are bad for you. If a dietitian tells you to eat sugar laden low-fat foods, run for the hills. Please don't get me wrong here, I am not saying a diet in which fat is restricted is good or bad for you, because everyone is different, but we restrict fat by eating real food, not by eating crap food of which the fat has been removed. A good rule of thumb is that if you do not know what any of the ingredients on the food label is, don't eat it. Isetech should get a good dietitian that prescribes real food and has a simple plan that he can stick to Agreed. (A diversionary discussion on the peer-review process has been avoided - phew!)
ChrisF Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 ......Yes you have to find what works for you.But you are going to have to find it out for yourself. By trying different things and observing the results. No dietician is gonna tell you anything new. ..... So I do research on hydraulic brakes for MTB's .... And I watch many videos, and I decide to follow the advise of the crowd that seems to be the most respected ..... OOOOPS !! Fortunately I know just enough of mechanical stuff to realise that these "well known" guys in the MTB game went and copied other videos, too stupid to realise they have combined to different processes aimed at two different brake designs, and thus bleeding airated fluid back into the system ..... Jaaaa, by all means, read up and pay your school fees as you go along.... Spongy brakes can be fixed easy enough when you find out who can be believed. When it gets to my health .... I do my homework and make sure I see a specialist, and one with the least come-backs When I was diagnosed diabetis I DID a lot of google-searches .... and caused a LOT more harm than good. Got to the point where I had to make a few decisions .... Google OFF, and LISTEN to the dietitian !! I have been following their advise VERY accurately for the last 20 months, including daily recording. The proof is there to see !! From bordering on insulin injections, down to the lowest pre-diabetic dosage of meds. FULL medical checks confirm I am healthier than ever. And just to confirm - I AM diabetic ! Had some pudding on my wifes birthday (SMALL portion) 30 minutes later I was in cold sweat and not well at all !! I went for multiple sessions at the dietitian, way more than what is needed to get the file with the "diet plan" .... I kept on going back and asking "why this?", "why that?" .... When dealing with a person that KNOWS her field, and given the time to delve into the "why's", then the pieces of the puzzle starts coming together !! Actually interesting to know and understand why some "non-sugar/carb" items are bad for diabetics and heart patients .... And what was even more interesting - I am Type 2 diabetic, while a friend who goes to the same dietitian is only pre-diabetic, but also different life styles etc etc .... Comparing the advise we get from the same dietitian !! And the dietitian KNOWS we know each other and are comparing notes, even discussed some of the differences in advise .... There is a LOT more to this topic than downloading a selection of foods ..... As for reading and trying it out yourself ..... NOT playing roulette with my health !! That said, I get sound advise from my doctor and dietitian, and on their recommendation try out different stuff, taking blood readings to make sure the experiments are properly done and results clearly understood. DISCLAIMER - all above said from the viewpoint of a diabetic.
Puncture Kid Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 So I do research on hydraulic brakes for MTB's .... And I watch many videos, and I decide to follow the advise of the crowd that seems to be the most respected ..... OOOOPS !! Fortunately I know just enough of mechanical stuff to realise that these "well known" guys in the MTB game went and copied other videos, too stupid to realise they have combined to different processes aimed at two different brake designs, and thus bleeding airated fluid back into the system ..... Jaaaa, by all means, read up and pay your school fees as you go along.... Spongy brakes can be fixed easy enough when you find out who can be believed. When it gets to my health .... I do my homework and make sure I see a specialist, and one with the least come-backs When I was diagnosed diabetis I DID a lot of google-searches .... and caused a LOT more harm than good. Got to the point where I had to make a few decisions .... Google OFF, and LISTEN to the dietitian !! I have been following their advise VERY accurately for the last 20 months, including daily recording. The proof is there to see !! From bordering on insulin injections, down to the lowest pre-diabetic dosage of meds. FULL medical checks confirm I am healthier than ever. And just to confirm - I AM diabetic ! Had some pudding on my wifes birthday (SMALL portion) 30 minutes later I was in cold sweat and not well at all !! I went for multiple sessions at the dietitian, way more than what is needed to get the file with the "diet plan" .... I kept on going back and asking "why this?", "why that?" .... When dealing with a person that KNOWS her field, and given the time to delve into the "why's", then the pieces of the puzzle starts coming together !! Actually interesting to know and understand why some "non-sugar/carb" items are bad for diabetics and heart patients .... And what was even more interesting - I am Type 2 diabetic, while a friend who goes to the same dietitian is only pre-diabetic, but also different life styles etc etc .... Comparing the advise we get from the same dietitian !! And the dietitian KNOWS we know each other and are comparing notes, even discussed some of the differences in advise .... There is a LOT more to this topic than downloading a selection of foods ..... As for reading and trying it out yourself ..... NOT playing roulette with my health !! That said, I get sound advise from my doctor and dietitian, and on their recommendation try out different stuff, taking blood readings to make sure the experiments are properly done and results clearly understood. DISCLAIMER - all above said from the viewpoint of a diabetic. Dunno how to reply inline. Your MTB brake example is not really a great analogy... If you don't have sufficient background knowledge to separate BS from (plausible) truth, then you are in trouble... I will concede that visiting a progressive and open-minded dietician/nutritionist has value. I have talked to same too many times where they simply dismiss ideas out of hand. Asking questions and knowing what the answers mean is crucial. And also to gauge if they are trying to BS you. Downloading a list of food is not what I call research. Knowing how metabolism works is going in the right direction. Trying different things, for me at least is not roulette. I am pretty healthy as it is. So if you have Diabetes, then I agree that you cannot take chances. Would be interested to know what you tried unsuccessfully vs what worked for you. If you wouldn't mind sharing
ChrisF Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 ..... If a dietitian tells you to eat sugar laden low-fat foods, run for the hills. Please don't get me wrong here, I am not saying a diet in which fat is restricted is good or bad for you, because everyone is different, but we restrict fat by eating real food, not by eating crap food of which the fat has been removed. ..... Seems you may just like my dietitian. The concept of staring blindly at one number on the ingredients list is NOT on !! IF you are going the label route, be prepared for a proper study, as you could easily go down a very bad path .....
ChrisF Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 Ettas just for curiosity. My dietitian had some interesting things to say about "fat" - as applicable to diabetics (for those that did not follow the hole discussion) If I was to summarise ... Not all fats are equal. Sadly the fat in bacon is one of those I should rather avoid. That does not mean I dont eat a dish at a friends house, but where I have the choice I will rather choose the other item. When looking a bit wider, I have a "fat-allowance" for the day and for the week .... so if a particular dish was more fatty, then cut back tomorrow. Fortunately I do like steamed vegatables, so this is not a problem for me. And to stay practical, the list carries on to say which items I may have, but less frequently. So it becomes easy to plan a diverse menu, including some "bederf" nights. Ironically, when you concentrate on the "good" foods and apply your mind to it, you can make some damn NICE dishes !!! - Giant mushroom- feta cheeze- spinach- minute steak- and for my wife an extra slice of cheeze ontop of this
Puncture Kid Posted November 1, 2017 Posted November 1, 2017 Ettas just for curiosity. My dietitian had some interesting things to say about "fat" - as applicable to diabetics (for those that did not follow the hole discussion) If I was to summarise ... Not all fats are equal. Sadly the fat in bacon is one of those I should rather avoid. That does not mean I dont eat a dish at a friends house, but where I have the choice I will rather choose the other item. When looking a bit wider, I have a "fat-allowance" for the day and for the week .... so if a particular dish was more fatty, then cut back tomorrow. Fortunately I do like steamed vegatables, so this is not a problem for me. And to stay practical, the list carries on to say which items I may have, but less frequently. So it becomes easy to plan a diverse menu, including some "bederf" nights. Ironically, when you concentrate on the "good" foods and apply your mind to it, you can make some damn NICE dishes !!! - Giant mushroom- feta cheeze- spinach- minute steak- and for my wife an extra slice of cheeze ontop of this The fat in Avo should also be fine for you? And nuts? Salmon? I suspect that all these would be OK for you. And they do add flavour. Is all animal fat a no-no for you?
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