cycling and faith

[Tumbleweed]

but to get this thread back to where it was supposed to be going...

 

 

 

my original post was never intended to drag up the old fights about faith and knowledge. it was more a case of looking at how one cyclist saw his faith in a creator helping his cycling.

 

 

 

here's a couple of quotes from the story:

 

"when you're injured or ill and can't even train, it's not as though you start wondering, 'why has god done this to me?'

 

"in the same way, it's not as though i'll take a risk in a sprint because god's looking out for me.

 

"ultimately, god decides our fate and we're at his mercy. at the same time, though, i'm never afraid in life or in cycling, and i think my faith plays a big part in that. when you believe in god, you believe and have faith in the path he's chosen for your life. in that sense you do feel stronger and more protected."

 

"i can only speak for christianity, but i think the bible teaches us to accept whatever is given to us. you can't blame god when you lose a sprint."

 

    

[Willehond]

holy if you did not think that this thread was going to go this way you are way more naive than I thought you were.  It was destined to go there from the start and you must have known it.

[Tumbleweed]

then i must be naive. but i'm not one to moan when things go off topic, now am i?

 

 

 

and what do you mean "way more naive than i thought you were"?holy roller2008-07-13 10:49:23

[Guest Big H]

Widget' date='

"God is all powerfull,why does he require your defense....sinner widget"

 

This is what has upset you.You now are on about getting upset and offending your father.

 

What part of this statement is offensive to your God??

On what do you base this alleged offence??

 

I put it to you that YOU have chosen to get offended.

Now stop being un reasonable and posting YOUR faith on the hub.

 

Where in Christian doctrine does it require you to "defend" GOD??

 

Practice what is taught bru... Justice,peace, love, charity,forgiveness and stop talking for all christians.Who gave you the mandate?

[/quote']

 

Is THIS the man who branded me a BIGOT in another posting? Two things come to mind "cast the first stone....." and "remove the beam from your own eye......"

[Guest Big H]

then i must be naive. but i'm not one to moan when things go off topic' date=' now am i?

and what do you mean "way more naive than i thought you were"?[/quote']

 

tee heeee..... die afgelope paar dae het vir my gewys dat die "holy roller" maar 'n baie dun ou velletjie het en regtig nie baie daarvan hou om te verdedig aangeval te word nie. Ek vind dit nogal snaaks.

[Tumbleweed]

then i must be naive. but i'm not one to moan when things go off topic' date=' now am i? and what do you mean "way more naive than i thought you were"?[/quote']

 

?

 

tee heeee..... die afgelope paar dae het vir my gewys dat die "holy roller" maar 'n baie dun ou velletjie het en regtig nie baie daarvan hou om te verdedig aangeval te word nie. Ek vind dit nogal snaaks.

 

 

 

as funny as someone who fakes his own departure to see if anyone likes him?

[linnega]

 

Linnega' date=' do you not feel that your role of "moderator" on this forum is in conflict with your religion? You obviously are very adamant that your beliefs are the way and the only way to get to heaven. I don't take issue with that at all ...

 

BUT

 

This forum attracts people of many faiths (or not) that feel as strongly about their beliefs as you do about yours but which often are in conflict with yours. I suggest that you reconsider your role as moderator as I do not believe that you can retain a moderate, neutral perspective on religious issues. Your faith does not allow you to refrain from participating in defense of it which I believe is completely at odds with the function of a moderator.

 

Note that I am not taking issue with your faith or beliefs so don't jump down my throat.

[/quote']

No conflict at all with being a moderator as there is no requirement for me to be neutral as a moderator.  I am posting to this post not moderating.

 

As for neutral perspective on religious issues, I am not sure what you could mean by that.  Faith is absolute for most religions.  Acceptance of other religions is a modern concept that I can accept, but obviously my Faith does not allow that I accept any other religion as right.  That would be the same for any Christian, Jew or Muslim.

 

[Canaris]

I am very interested and facinated by the reaction to my posting about the relationship/ dialectic between faith and doubt. ?For me it is a rather important discovery. ?Mother Theresa, no matter how strong she believed, was faced with great doubt, and the only way I can understand that is by evoking this dialectic. ?However, it is for me reassuring that having doubt may be a stepping stone to greater faith, rather than a sign of weakness, or lack of faith. ?For some people things are so simple, but not for me.

I am also worried that some chose to believe stringently in some parts of the scriptures and not others. ?This is obviously a pit fall, as most people can google any bible verse in a matter of seconds, and be able to swat down almost any arguement "biblically". ?If you chose to argue about the scriptures, ?and make a stand, then the fool is you. ?(For the fundementalists, remember what Jesus did in the wilderness when Satan confronted him with the scriptures? ?He did not become high and mighty, but rather said "it is written...." When having a debate about the scripture, then the scripture is the only point of reference, the only weapon, and both Satan and Jesus used the scripiture with skill and cunning- ?watch and learn: ?Matthew 4).

Another concern is that instead of explain the christain faith that would be accessible to others, and may even make others ponder on the value of christainity in their lives, some people are very abrasive and aggressive about the absoluteness of what they believe. ?THis frightens people away, and is not with in line with the evangelistic mandate of christianity.

I am all for debate, where debate leads to understanding, and deaper sprituality, but dogma is the enemy of open discussions.

[linnega]

BTW Holy, I was going to post on your original post.  Read the article when I got my Procycling.  Benatti seems to have come into his own in the last two years. He was lost after Cipo retired and was given limited opportunities with Phonak.  When Procycling interviewed him near the end of his contract with Phonak he was bitter and twisted.  In fact, a few of the comments he made made me a little uncomfortable about

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ethics of the home of our top foreign

export. Wrote it off to bitterness at the time but probably

shouldn't have.

 

Anyway, interesting to see Benna

professing his faith when times are good, but it would have meant

more if he had professed the same when times were tough. Perhaps he

did but it wasn't reported. Either way I always like his ?serenity?

in the tough sprints, so I am a fan.

linnega2008-07-13 12:22:41

[Joe Low]

  obviously my Faith does not allow that I accept any other religion as right.  That would be the same for any Christian' date=' Jew or Muslim.
[/quote']

 

That appears to be the logical conclusion but goodness it has brought millenia of fighting and suffering and pain across the world, that it is hard to see these religions or faiths as "a good thing".

 

The faith of individuals evident in how they treat others is quite wonderful. It's tragic that the quiet truth of individuals gets drowned out by the crass acts and pronouncements of their religious organizations.

 

 

 

 

[Tumbleweed]

linnega, you're right. he does come as comfortable with himself, his marriage, his sport and ability. interesting you mention cipo: that sidebar on him is funny, especially the bit about him having commited enough deadly sins to block book every confessional in europe

[Canaris]

 

? obviously my Faith does not allow that I accept any other religion as right.? That would be the same for any Christian' date=' Jew or Muslim.
[/quote']

?

That appears to be the logical conclusion but goodness it has brought millenia of fighting and suffering and pain across the world, that it is hard to see these religions or faiths as "a good thing".

?

The faith of individuals evident in how they treat others is quite wonderful. It's tragic that the quiet truth of individuals gets drowned out by the crass acts and pronouncements of their religious organizations.

?

?

?

?

 

That is the difference between practicing your faith, and defending your faith.

[linnega]

 

Joe Low - it is indeed a very sad indictment on human nature that so many evildoings are done in the name of religion.  What is happening in Iraq is probably the best modern example.

 

Holy - I liked the article.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thetone was excellent. Very light-hearted

but managed to deal with quite a few interesting aspects. The

comments on Cipo were amusing, and probably the most forthright

comments Benna has made about Cipo.

linnega2008-07-13 12:38:21

[Rogz]

Hey, wow, now things are really cooking! Guys, debates like these are healthy, and should be recognized as such, and encouraged. The intention of hashing issues like these out to make everyone who participates think; think about what they say, think about how they behave, and think about what they believe. The intention is not to try and change someone?s beliefs, because (believe me) that?s just not going to happen.  No atheist is going to find religion, no matter how many times the scriptures are quoted, and no one is going to abandon their (faith-based) religion, no matter how many times atheists demand objective proof. <?: prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

 

So, when posting in a forum like this, everyone should know that their statements are going to be scrutinized, and there is little to no point in answering by quoting scripture, or by demanding proof.

 

If your only contribution is demand proof or to hide behind faith or scripture, then rather refrain from participating, because things will probably degenerate in name-calling, which while initially quite fascinating to watch from the sidelines, quickly turns stale and boring, and really doesn?t achieve much (except perhaps to ruin what where once perfectly good friendships).

 

For those who choose to stay (remember, no one is forcing anyone to stay if they find what?s being said to be offensive) remember ? this is a debate. What?s being bounced back and forward has to be logical and objective ? if your only response is scripture or demands for proof (even though I obviously lean to this side), then you are not debating ? you?re merely making statements, over and over again.

 

[Climbs off soapbox]

 

Now, getting back to where it all started (or at least where I joined in) ? I merely commented that I did not like the idea of not being in control of my own destiny, and expressed distaste for the idea that one?s life is all pre-planned out for you.

 

I maintain this position; if the outcome is already decided, why bother going through the motions? There is no point is stating that ?everyone has a choice?, because in the case of a pre-ordained destiny, that?s just not true. If God (or any other deity) is all-knowing, then he/she/it will already know what choices you will make, so again, what?s the point? Why give someone a choice, when you already know (and have planned) the outcome? If an all powerful, all-knowing God exists (which is what I?m given to understand) then what I don?t understand is why? Like I said, it?s like watching a movie that you know the outcome to. In the movie, characters are continually faced with choices and consequences, but once you know how the movie ends, replaying that movie and getting all excited about what the characters are going to do, and what happens to them is pointless. God supposedly not only already knows the outcome of the movie, he planned and directed it.  So I?ll ask again, why sit back and let it run again?

 

And from a personal point of view, I also maintain that if your destiny is already decided, then there is nothing you can do to change it. In fact, EVERYTHING you do, you do because its been planned. If a rapist rapes a 2 year old, is that planned? Surely God would not plan such a thing? And if he didn?t, how could he (being all knowing) not have know that this is what was going to happen?

 

I?m sorry, but it does not make sense (and making sense is the very idea of a debate) to state that God has planned everything in advance, yet you have a choice, and your choice will determine your destiny (but that at the same time, your destiny is predetermined).

 

Please don?t answer this with quotes from the scriptures ? I?m not interested in what someone else wrote in a book, I?m interested in what YOU think ?

 

[Tumbleweed]

sorry for the minhijack, but it's amazing how much cipo still features in the mag. that issue also had the little feature about the lion king and his exploits on youtube, and then mecewen also dealt with him in his interview with marcel wust.

 

 

 

back to the article, i didn't know about the luc leblanc/le groupement scandal. made a mental note to read more about that, but haven't got round to it yet.

[linnega]

 

back to the article' date=' i didn't know about the luc leblanc/le groupement scandal. made a mental note to read more about that, but haven't got round to it yet.[/quote']

Thanks for reminding me.  Meant to do that do - also had not heard of the scandal.