.

[HammerHed]

I also got WTB Speedisc rims, came standard on my GT Avalanche 0.5 with Shimano M525 hubs.

 

My back wheel also goes out of true every now and again (not the front though). The first time I noticed I was wondering what the creaking/shuffling sound was in my back wheel and noticed a broken spoke, so I replaced it with one the same size diameter and length or close as I could get at my lbs they measured it with a vernier, then trued it as best I could.

 

I notice 6 months later I have broken another spoke and the wheel is out of true again.

 

The spokes break at the start of the shaft of the spoke where it comes out of the nipple.

 

Why would this be happening, I weigh 82kg.

 

[singletrackmind]

Had a mate with WTB speed discs and he had the same problems, they are very soft rims

[JPW#]

yip....very soft rims....kinda like the alloy frames....7005 lasts longer and not as soft as the 6061 tubing. I'm going for the heavy duty mavic's.... I have mavic rims on one of my road bikes,...15000km and still like the day I bought them.  

[Johan Bornman]

I also got WTB Speedisc rims' date=' came standard on my GT Avalanche 0.5 with Shimano M525 hubs.

My back wheel also goes out of true every now and again (not the front though). The first time I noticed I was wondering what the creaking/shuffling sound was in my back wheel and noticed a broken spoke, so I replaced it with one the same size diameter and length or close as I could get at my lbs they measured it with a vernier, then trued it as best I could.

I notice 6 months later I have broken another spoke and the wheel is out of true again.

The spokes break at the start of the shaft of the spoke where it comes out of the nipple.

Why would this be happening, I weigh 82kg.
[/quote']

 

It has nothing to do with the rims and everything to do with the wheelbuild. Spokes that break as you describe arrive at the rim at an angle other than 90 degrees or thereabouts and therefore bend just before they enter the rim. This bend is in the hightly stressed threaded area and they quickly snap off.

 

A skilled wheelbuilder will calculate all the angles with 1, 2 or 3X lacing for the relevant hub and rim size and then choose the appropriate lacing for that combination of hub and rim.

 

He will also stress-relieve the spokes and de-twist them before handing the wheel over to the customer.

 

Find a good wheelbuilder and ask him to fix the wheel for you. Test him by asking him how he stress relieves his wheels.

 

A vernier is of little use when measuring a spoke, as they're either 2, 1,8 or 1,5 mm in diameter and it is easy to see with the eye. All spokes are 2mm at the threads and at the bend. More important is the correct length. However, most bike shops stock rubbish spokes - straight-gauge (green box in DT packaging). This should not be sold in good bike shops.

 

Your weight is a very small contributing factor and I'd place all the blame on the wheelbuilder. Factory wheels are also notorious for this type of failure.

 

[Johan Bornman]

yip....very soft rims....kinda like the alloy frames....7005 lasts longer and not as soft as the 6061 tubing. I'm going for the heavy duty mavic's.... I have mavic rims on one of my road bikes' date='...15000km and still like the day I bought them.   [/quote']

 

JP, you're posting as an expert in the Tech Forum and I fear someone may actually take your advice. Please at least try and get your terminology right. The meaning of the word alloy is very specific and should not be used as you do. I am not aware of a single metal frame that is not made of one or other alloy.

 

Further, the hardness of the metal doesn't come to play here, but the way it extrudes and fatigues. Throwing around fancy terms like 7005 and 6061 doesn't cut it here without proper explanations.

 

While you're at it, look up the meaning of hardness in relation to metals and try and understand the interplay between hardness and the other properties that matter.

 

Calling those rims soft doesn't help.

 

You parade as a wheelbuilder, ask questions, answer your own question and then proceed with bad advice pertaining to your own question.

 

Stop it.

 

[Wyatt Earp]

 All spokes are 2mm at the threads and at the bend.

 

 

This of course is not true.

DT. swiss have spokes that have a 1.8 mm thread.

The Sapim Race spokes also spring to mind.

 

 

Also another point to make, often the spoke holes in the hubs are quite a bit bigger than what would be ideal, especially in the cheaper entry level hubs, DT. supply brass washers to eliminate this problem and get rid of that little bit of movement which takes place which in turn places unneccesary stress on the spokes, especially at the bend.

Alas I am sure I am about to be proven wrong.

 

[Tumbleweed]

ding-ding, seconds out...

[Johan Bornman]

 All spokes are 2mm at the threads and at the bend.

 

 

This of course is not true.

DT. swiss have spokes that have a 1.8 mm thread.

The Sapim Race spokes also spring to mind.

 

 

Also another point to make' date=' often the spoke holes in the hubs are quite a bit bigger than what would be ideal, especially in the cheaper entry level hubs, DT. supply brass washers to eliminate this problem and get rid of that little bit of movement which takes place which in turn places unneccesary stress on the spokes, especially at the bend.

Alas I am sure I am about to be proven wrong.

 

[/quote']

 

Yes, and DT and Sapim also have a Trekking spoke with a 2.3mm butt at the bend. However, you cannot buy any of them in SA. Same for 1.8mm spokes. They are just about extinct in the rest of the world too. Wheelsmith still makes some but again there is no local source.

 

Spoke holes in hubs are 2.3mm for Shimano and 2.2mm for Campag and other hubs default to one of these two standards. Spokes are 2mm.

 

In order to make up for the discrepancy between a 2mm spoke and 2,3mm spoke hole, a brass washer that sits next to the hole won't do. You'll need a ferrule that fits over the spoke and is no longer than the thickness of the flange.

 

The cure you're describing equates to a washer that must compensage for a nut that's too big for a bolt.

 

Brass washers serve only one purpose and that's to negate the batch of faulty spokes DT Swiss distributed in the late 1990s and paraded as an improvement.

 

Edit: I just noticed your mention of Sapim Race spokes. They all have 2mm threaded ends. I think you're confusing shaft diameter (2mm, or 1.8mm or 1.5mm) for butt diameter, which is by and large 2mm except for some archaic relics.

 

 

 

 

 

Johan Bornman2008-10-06 12:24:50

[Wyatt Earp]

I am almost certain those late 90's spokes are out of circulation by now, if this was however the reason they should also stop supplying the washers to wheelbuilders.

I have built quite a few wheelsets using 1.8 mm DT. Spokes .

And YES DT. still makes them as well as Sapim.

 

You are 100 % correct regarding the diametres of the spoke holes, however not all hubs are made to very close tolerances.

I am going to take a flyer here ,and Hammerhed has already pointed to the fact that these are possibly WTB hubs as well, is that correct Hammer ?

If so, this concurs with what I get on a weekly basis and a re-build with fresh spokes and WASHERS has never given me a return wheel.

 

A nut too big for a bolt  are we not talking wheels here ?

 

[Johan Bornman]

I am almost certain those late 90's spokes are out of circulation by now' date=' if this was however the reason they should also stop supplying the washers to wheelbuilders.

I have built quite a few wheelsets using 1.8 mm DT. Spokes .

And YES DT. still makes them as well as Sapim.

 

You are 100 % correct regarding the diametres of the spoke holes, however not all hubs are made to very close tolerances.

I am going to take a flyer here ,and Hammerhed has already pointed to the fact that these are possibly WTB hubs as well, is that correct Hammer ?

If so, this concurs with what I get on a weekly basis and a re-build with fresh spokes and WASHERS has never given me a return wheel.

 

A nut too big for a bolt  are we not talking wheels here ?

 

[/quote']

 

Well, they're not our of circulation. All you have to do is measure the bends and you'll find plenty. I look at the spoke collections of a lot of bike shops and I find them all the time. Spoke collections aren't refreshed all that often.

 

You cannot quote spoke guages in single measurements. Only straight-gauge spokes are one thickness throughout. Double-butted is 2mm-1.8mm-2mm or in the case of Laser and Revolutions, 2mm-1.5mm-2mm.

 

Point is, 1.8mm spokes are not for sale in ZA. Where do you get yours? 

 

I think my nut-and-bolt analogy doesn't require any other explanation and translates well to your description of washers as a remedy for holes that are too big.

 

All WTB hubs have 2.4mm holes. Washers won't make the holes smaller nor will washer make the wire spokes thicker. A washer is not a remedy for a large spoke hole.

 

As for the tolerances on the spoke holes. I think they're very accurate actually. I've never found a hub where some spoke holes are 2mm, others 2.1mm, others 2.2mm and some 2.4mm. What hub have you found with a mish-mash of hole sizes.

 

Go slow on the smileys and stick to precise descriptions and fact instead.

 

[Wyatt Earp]

 

 

These aren't smileys, it says LAUGH OUT LOUD emoticons.

Your thumbsucking and propaganda makes me laugh and I just need to express that.

Man you have a keen eye, especially to see the faulty late 90's spokes of which there was a very small amount of batches.

My 1.8mm spokes were from Coolheat as well as (here we go again) the NIPPLE to support these spokes, they aslo supply 12, 14 and 16 mm length nips.

I have had a few DRC rims in the past year which required some re-building, and the washers, as (still to this day) which are supplied by DT has made all the difference in the world.

The washers fill the following need.

Modern spokes are by and large 2.0mm in diameter at the elbow end. Spoke holes in modern hubs are drilled to 2.3mm because they have been for years .Spokes are free to work around in the oversize hole which in part contributes to the breakage at the elbow.

 The soft brass washer either pulls into a conical shape during tensioning or is driven into that shape by the use of a "spoke setting drift" 

 That conical shape makes the spoke end sit more secure in the hole of the hub .

The spoke holes on hubs have always been close to 2.3mm. A 14 gauge spoke is 2.0mm in diameter. When you put threads on the spoke you 'roll' the threads on. This increases the diameter of the spoke from 2.0mm to 2.3mm at the threads. You need the 2.3mm hole at the hub to get the spoke through.

As I said and stated as well, not all the hubs are made to the closest tolerances.

 

As a final though, the Tch Q@A is not owned by you or myself, therefore I will feel free to add as many smileys as I see fit.

Summit Cycles2008-10-06 13:11:33

[ChunkyMonkey]

Mavic XM 819!!! Enough said!!!

[HammerHed]

 

You are 100 % correct regarding the diametres of the spoke holes' date=' however not all hubs are made to very close tolerances.

I am going to take a flyer here ,and Hammerhed has already pointed to the fact that these are possibly WTB hubs as well, is that correct Hammer ?

[/quote']

My hubs are Shimano M525 on WTB Speed Disc rims. These wheels are standard GT issue factory built.

 

I must say that the LBS I went to for the spokes had no idea what spokes to sell me as a replacement, I took the broke spoke with and they scratched around through many boxes and came back with a suitable replacement that I could see was a lot thinner but the right length so I said rather get be thicker than thinner if you don't have the same size.

 

As a lay person it is easy to get sold some old junk that has been lying around the shop for year,s I wouldn't  know any different unless I measured them with the vernier.

 

What do you guys suggest I do with that wheel, does it need a rebuild or can I save it with spoke replacements and trueing again?

 

[dirtrider]

Hammer where does the spokes break everytime ?

[Flowta]

 

I would suggest Mavic XM819 (Disc or V-brake option)

They are strong and you won't have to do a tubeless conversion on them...

 

I agree, they're awesome

 

[HammerHed]

 

Hammer where does the spokes break everytime ?

Spoke breaks where it comes out of the nipple!