MTB Hubs

[turtlek]

 

 

 

The number of ratchets in a hub freehub body is a nonsense feature. Shimano has enough. Anything more is a waste.

 

?

 

When riding singletrack it is nice though if your hub engages "quicker"? (Less degrees movement before it engages)

 

 

 

retro even if there are more ratchets they will all be in the same position on the actual spline so therefore no matter how many ratchets you have the time it takes for one of them to engage is the same amount of time it will take all the others to engage It is round after all!!!!

[MintSauce]

 

The number of ratchets in a hub freehub body is a nonsense feature. Shimano has enough. Anything more is a waste.

The number of pawls (or in the Chris King case' date=' pawl equivalents) are irrelevant since ONLY ONE PAWL engages at any one time.[/quote']

 

 

 

Driveshell with 72 engagement teeth (A) engages drive ring with 72 teeth (B)

 

Drive ring engages Driven ring with 72 teeth (C & D)

 

All 72 engagement teeth engage simultaneously hence the reason Chris King claims to have the most durable drive system in the world.

 

I've heard of many, many people's ratchet-and-pawl systems failing over the years.

 

I have never ever heard of a King Ringdrive failing.

 

 

So how can you say that anything more is a waste?

 

 

[Retrorider]

 

 

 

 

retro even if there are more ratchets they will all be in the same position on the actual spline so therefore no matter how many ratchets you have the time it takes for one of them to engage is the same amount of time it will take all the others to engage It is round after all!!!!

Depends on the design of the hub , but having more pawls or in some cases sets of pawls that engages is one of the mechanisms used to reduce the degrees movement before engagement.  The time it takes to engage is not about the pawl moving inwards towards the centre as I guess you are picturing it, it is about how far the freewheel moves (turns) in comparison with the hub before the next pawl or set of pawls engages.

 

For example it can be done in the following way:

"The

Industry Nine drive mechanism is a fairly simple, tried-and-true pawl

arrangement. When engaged, each of the three driving pawls itself has three

points, providing nine points of contact to the hardened A2 drive ring. The

drive ring has 60 teeth, which would normally allow a 6-degree engagement ?

among the fastest in the industry. Industry Nine proprietary mechanism allows

for a second set of three pawls, phased three degrees from the first. This

feature cuts engagement time in half, to a mind-blowing three degrees! Their

lightning quick take-up has become highly desirable on singlespeeds, twenty-niners,

and disciplines with gate starts. "

Retrorider2008-11-15 06:14:42

[turtlek]

 

 

 

 

retro even if there are more ratchets they will all be in the same position on the actual spline so therefore no matter how many ratchets you have the time it takes for one of them to engage is the same amount of time it will take all the others to engage It is round after all!!!!

Depends on the design of the hub ' date=' but having more pawls or in some cases sets of pawls that engages is one of the mechanisms used to reduce the degrees movement before engagement.? The time it takes to engage is not about the pawl moving inwards towards the centre as I guess you are picturing it, it is about how far the freewheel moves (turns) in comparison with the hub before the next pawl or set of pawls engages.For example it can be done in the following way:"<font size="1" face="Verdana"><strong style="font-weight: 400;">The

 

Industry Nine drive mechanism is a fairly simple, tried-and-true pawl

 

arrangement. When engaged, each of the three driving pawls itself has three

 

points, providing nine points of contact to the hardened A2 drive ring. The

 

drive ring has 60 teeth, which would normally allow a 6-degree engagement ?

 

among the fastest in the industry. Industry Nine proprietary mechanism allows

 

for a second set of three pawls, phased three degrees from the first. This

 

feature cuts engagement time in half, to a mind-blowing three degrees! Their

 

lightning quick take-up has become highly desirable on singlespeeds, twenty-niners,

 

and disciplines with gate starts.

"[/quote']

 

 

 

Thanks for clarifying your thoughts

 

 

 

what i was thinking is that no matter how quick the free hub will engage with the ratchet and pawls it all depends on how quick you you start to pedal for the wheel to be driven forward

 

 

 

for example if you have these industry 9 wheels and you have the reflexes of a dead cow it doesnt really matter how fast the ratchet and pawls engage in single track or anywhere else for that matter

[Johan Bornman]

The number of ratchets in a hub freehub body is a nonsense feature. Shimano has enough. Anything more is a waste.

The number of pawls (or in the Chris King case' date=' pawl equivalents) are irrelevant since ONLY ONE PAWL engages at any one time.[/quote']




Driveshell with 72 engagement teeth (A) engages drive ring with 72 teeth (B)

Drive ring engages Driven ring with 72 teeth (C & D)

All 72 engagement teeth engage simultaneously hence the reason Chris King claims to have the most durable drive system in the world.

I've heard of many, many people's ratchet-and-pawl systems failing over the years.

I have never ever heard of a King Ringdrive failing.

So how can you say that anything more is a waste?

 

We've been through this before and you still don't seem to grasp the concept.

 

The fact that you've never heard of a CK ringdrive failing is neither here nor there, but very likely a function of very few CK drives in the market.

 

Secondly, when you have a system where multiple teeth engage supposedly simultaneously, you actually have one tooth engaging. Machining is just not that accurate that all the teeth have the same take-up and there is always one tooth/ratched/ringdrive ridge that takes up the bulk of the engagement. Always.

 

You seem to point to a 72-way redundency, which is absurd. One of them is strong enough to take the strain and one does it.

 

Further, on ratchet hubs, it is not the rathes that fails in engagement, but the rathet that fails in NOT ENGAGING due to dirt, hard grease etc. Freehub ratches don't fail because the pawl gets crushed or ratched teeth broken off, therefore your 72-point redundancy issue is moot.

 

Finally, you're missing my point. I know you claim to do all your rides in very eroded singletrack where you cranks cannot make full revolutions due to the pedals hitting the embankments on both sides and therefore need a 360/72 degree ratcheting functionality. However, most of us don't do that. We don't continue to erode dongas by attempting to ride them and we don't ratchet our way through rides. We pedal in full circles. Therefore, a pedalling engagement of 360/16 times per revolution is good enough for us. On a 175mm crank, that is a few millimeters of travel. Therefore anything more is a waste. Capish? No, I didn't think so.

 

 

 

[Johan Bornman]

retro even if there are more ratchets they will all be in the same position on the actual spline so therefore no matter how many ratchets you have the time it takes for one of them to engage is the same amount of time it will take all the others to engage It is round after all!!!!

Depends on the design of the hub ' date=' but having more pawls or in some cases sets of pawls that engages is one of the mechanisms used to reduce the degrees movement before engagement.  The time it takes to engage is not about the pawl moving inwards towards the centre as I guess you are picturing it, it is about how far the freewheel moves (turns) in comparison with the hub before the next pawl or set of pawls engages.

For example it can be done in the following way:
"The Industry Nine drive mechanism is a fairly simple, tried-and-true pawl arrangement. When engaged, each of the three driving pawls itself has three points, providing nine points of contact to the hardened A2 drive ring. The drive ring has 60 teeth, which would normally allow a 6-degree engagement ? among the fastest in the industry. Industry Nine proprietary mechanism allows for a second set of three pawls, phased three degrees from the first. This feature cuts engagement time in half, to a mind-blowing three degrees! Their lightning quick take-up has become highly desirable on singlespeeds, twenty-niners, and disciplines with gate starts. "

[/quote']

 

Quite a lot of BS in this piece of text I presume comes form Industry Nine.

 

1) All pawls are driving pawls. I don't know of any other type.

2) Hardened drive ring? All pawls and drive rings are hardened on all hubs..

3) What the hell has singlespeeds, 29ers and gate start disciplines got to do with this?

4) The distance in travel between a 6 degree engagement and 3 degree engagement on a 175 mm crank is as follows

 

 

Circumference = 2 pi x R which is

 

2 x 3.14 x 175

= 1099mm.

 

For a 3 degree engagement the distance from one to the next engagement is 1099/360 =3,053mm

3,053mm x 3 = 9mm

 

For a 6 degree engagement the distance from one to the next engagement is 3.053 x 6 = 18mm.

 

It is hardly mind-blowing or lightning quick.

 

Whoopee! 

[Johan Bornman]

The number of ratchets in a hub freehub body is a nonsense feature. Shimano has enough. Anything more is a waste.

 

When riding singletrack it is nice though if your hub engages "quicker"  (Less degrees movement before it engages)

Perhaps you can tell us why this is so nice and where it will come in useful.

 

 

[TheLegend]

 

[...]

Capish? No' date=' I didn't think so.

 

[/quote']

 

what's that arrogance for?

 

[Johan Bornman]

[...]

Capish? No' date=' I didn't think so.

 

[/quote']

what's that arrogance for?

 

I've reiterated this point with him before and it keeps on coming back, with malice. I expect no change this time either. Presumptious perhaps, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

Chris King is the holy grail and no-one dares criticise or analyse it.

 

 

Johan Bornman2008-11-15 14:38:22

[TheLegend]

 

[...]

Capish? No' date=' I didn't think so.

 

[/quote']

 

what's that arrogance for?

 

I've reiterated this point with him before and it keeps on coming back, with malice. I expect no change this time either. Presumptious perhaps, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

Chris King is the holy grail and no-one dares criticise or analyse it.

 

 

 

I enjoy reading the information an discussion here. Especially since my specific knowledge in the subject discusse here is practically not existing I'd have argued like Minty does. Your explanation, assuming it's correct, does make sense to me as well.

It doesn't matter how foten he comes up with the same point again and again - why do you let him tease you? It's like the repeatedly annyoing BigH and also colonel is doing his best there. It's like a Kindergarten, only you'd think you don't have to point it out to adults here.

You know how the advice goes: "You stand above that". Becoming arrogant just show a weakness and makes you unpopular. You noticed how many people just leave posts uncommented that are not worth it?

 

[Johan Bornman]

Legend, comment noted and looking forward to discussing the Chris King aura on a purely factual level.

[TheLegend]

good boy 

[Retrorider]

 

The number of ratchets in a hub freehub body is a nonsense feature. Shimano has enough. Anything more is a waste.

 

 

When riding singletrack it is nice though if your hub engages "quicker"  (Less degrees movement before it engages)

 

 

Perhaps you can tell us why this is so nice and where it will come in useful.

 

 

Finally' date=' you're missing my point. I know you claim to do all your rides

in very eroded singletrack where you cranks cannot make full

revolutions due to the pedals hitting the embankments on both sides and

therefore need a 360/72 degree ratcheting functionality. However, most

of us don't do that. We don't continue to erode dongas by attempting to

ride them and we don't ratchet our way through rides. We pedal in full

circles. Therefore, a pedalling engagement of 360/16 times per

revolution is good enough for us. On a 175mm crank, that is a few

millimeters of travel. Therefore anything more is a waste. Capish? No,

I didn't think so.

 

[/quote']

 

"We" do not claim to do all our rides in very eroded singletrack.  We do not ratchet our way through the forest and we also tend to pedal in circles.

 

If I am correct assuming a typical Shimano freewheel engages after 10 degrees, it gives up to 35mm free play at the end of a 175mm crank.

 

When riding single track one often has to stop pedaling for various reasons. (After a log jump, sharp turn, letting a stump pass under one pedal for example.)  When one then start pedaling again it is very "nice" getting immediate lockup. (Not imperative or particularly usefull, but nice) 

 

In single track you gain stability from your pedals and it is nice to have what feels like immediate lockup- in other words a more consistant action.  I used to ride a wheel with a quick lockup  and then went back to Shimano hubs.  I did  miss the quick lockup till I got used to taking up the slack again, but the less the takeup (or call it slack) the nicer.

 

Perhaps you can tell us why this is so nice and where it will come in useful

 

Maw Johan dit voel lekkerder man. 

 

 

 

 

[GoLefty!!]

Chris King hubs are the holy grail because they are the most expensive money can buy.

 

Other than that they spin round and round and offer no reall advantage over Shimano XTR at 1/3rd the price.

 

People praise hte longevity of Chris King but i have never worn out or broken a Shimano XTR. I have on e from 2003 that is still running with its original freehub.

 

Oh yes and CK come in nice colours.

 

Is a faster engaging freebub an advantage? I don't think so. Having 35mm of fee play at the crank allows your legs to gain inertia before applying drive to the wheel and that is of bigger benefit than having an instant takeup. I have never felt on any singletrack trail that a faster engagement was an advantage. It's just good marketing

[Retrorider]

 

 

 

Is a faster engaging freebub an advantage? I don't think so.

Having 35mm of fee play at the crank allows your legs to gain inertia

before applying drive to the wheel and that is of bigger benefit than

having an instant takeup. I have never felt on any singletrack trail

that a faster engagement was an advantage. It's just good marketing

 

 

 

Why settle for 35mm, perhaps 60mm or even more will give you even better inertia!  Perhaps

you should experiment in that direction.  Or do do you consider Shimano's hubs to have the optimal amount of take up?

It's just good marketing

Retrorider2008-11-15 16:46:53

[Johan Bornman]

Chris King hubs are the holy grail because they are the most expensive money can buy.

 

Other than that they spin round and round and offer no reall advantage over Shimano XTR at 1/3rd the price.

 

People praise hte longevity of Chris King but i have never worn out or broken a Shimano XTR. I have on e from 2003 that is still running with its original freehub.

 

Oh yes and CK come in nice colours.

 

 

Very nice colours, I'll admit. But Lefty, you forgot to mention one of the most important advantages of Shimano. When the ratchet wears out or breaks, you buy another freehub body for a couple of bob and replace it.

 

With some other hubs, the ratchet is part of the hub. You replace the entire hub.....and spokes and rim and wheelbuild.