MTB Hubs

[Xenomorph]

 

I'll email Hope and let them know to go back to the drawing board cos johan said so...

 

I tell you what' date=' instead of just an idle, sarcastic threat, why not e-mail them and ask their chief engineer to join the discussion. It won't be the first time we've done that and not the first we've eaten him for breakfast either.

 

I also suggest you go do some research on this forum about the various types of hub seals and the disadvantages and advantages before you just believe whatever a vendor tells you.

 

Please cc me on the Hope e-mail, I'll be delighted to see their comment. Previously we've had some posters here who apparently went and tattletaled to Park Tool about a comment I made on one of their tools. Sadly the mail never materialised and we're still sitting with the rubbish tool from Park.

 

 

 

 

[/quote']

 

Park is totally over-rated!

 

[bustthesickness]

 

 

Is a faster engaging freebub an advantage? I don't think so. Having 35mm of fee play at the crank allows your legs to gain inertia before applying drive to the wheel and that is of bigger benefit than having an instant takeup. I have never felt on any singletrack trail that a faster engagement was an advantage. It's just good marketing

I dont know about this. Personally, for me, I'd rather have a hub that engages exactly when I need it to.

 

[sampie]

Can the hub be repaired. When i turn my wheel its getting to a point where its like getting stuck, sometimes its not freeing proberly and the chain gets suck in.

[bustthesickness]

 

 

I'll email Hope and let them know to go back to the drawing board cos johan said so...

 

I tell you what' date=' instead of just an idle, sarcastic threat, why not e-mail them and ask their chief engineer to join the discussion. It won't be the first time we've done that and not the first we've eaten him for breakfast either.

 

I also suggest you go do some research on this forum about the various types of hub seals and the disadvantages and advantages before you just believe whatever a vendor tells you.

 

Please cc me on the Hope e-mail, I'll be delighted to see their comment. Previously we've had some posters here who apparently went and tattletaled to Park Tool about a comment I made on one of their tools. Sadly the mail never materialised and we're still sitting with the rubbish tool from Park.

 

 

 

 

[/quote']

Hi Johan, I don't think Hope's engineer will have any interest in joining this discussion. I think the bottom line is that everyone has different needs within this sport. We have all of these products to choose from, and each has their pro's and cons. I most definitly believe that a hub's form should follow its function.

Since each and every one of our functions vary, the design should

therefore vary too.

 

I very much doubt that a highly credible company like Chris King or Hope would release a product onto the market without some very serious engineering considerations, R&D, market research and extensive testing.

 

I like to use products that work for me, and the type of riding I enjoy. I've run Shimano hubs before, and liked them. I run Hope hubs now, and I like them more. Each to their own. If you'd like to email Hope and start up an irrelevant and opinionated discussion about why you prefer another methodology, by all means, but I'd rather go out and ride than argue about a piece of metal!

 

I also don't see the problem with products coming out in 'pretty colours'. Shimano hubs are anodized just as Hope and CK are. It's a finishing process that will have no effect on the final price outcome whether its blue or gold or black.

 

 

bustthesickness2008-11-17 01:29:27

[Johan Bornman]

 

 

Hi Johan' date=' I don't think Hope's engineer will have any interest in joining this discussion. I think the bottom line is that everyone has different needs within this sport. We have all of these products to choose from, and each has their pro's and cons. I most definitly believe that a hub's form should follow its function. Since each and every one of our functions vary, the design should therefore vary too.

I very much doubt that a highly credible company like Chris King or Hope would release a product onto the market without some very serious engineering considerations, R&D, market research and extensive testing.

I like to use products that work for me, and the type of riding I enjoy. I've run Shimano hubs before, and liked them. I run Hope hubs now, and I like them more. Each to their own. If you'd like to email Hope and start up an irrelevant and opinionated discussion about why you prefer another methodology, by all means, but I'd rather go out and ride than argue about a piece of metal!

I also don't see the problem with products coming out in 'pretty colours'. Shimano hubs are anodized just as Hope and CK are. It's a finishing process that will have no effect on the final price outcome whether its blue or gold or black.


[/quote']

 

A backpedal, arsecover and red herring all in one. You should get a job in a corporate. They pay big money for people with these traits. You also have some advertising potential - all that "form follows function" speak...Audi may even employ you.

 

Your retort is a far cry from "I'll e-mail Hope and tell them...."  Now you doubt they'll participate. I think you may be surprised.

 

Words like "each to their own" has no bearing on the technical discussion this was. It wasn't an discussion about what hubs give you the best touchy-feely start to the day, it was a discussion about technical flaws of O-ring seals. If a seal is rubbish, the "each to his own" approach doesn't make it better.

 

I see you edited your mail before I could respond. Good, because I certainly don't prefer things as you originally stated.

 

You say all our functions vary. I don't understand. Hubs don't have different functions for different people. They're hubs. Not Leatherman multi-tools. All hubs should have good bearings, good seals and conform to reasonable standards in design so that they can at least fit standard cassettes and be used with standard spokes etc.

 

Before you go for your ride, please tell us how different people's needs affect the basics of hub design.

 

There is no place in the market for an expensive hub with an inappropriate seal. Finish and klaar.

 

No-one criticised pretty colours. In fact, it was seen as one of the redeeming factors in one or other hub, I can't remember.

 

You say you doubt that credible companies would release defective products? Ha! Let me name them - Shimano (its crimes in the last ten years include WH-R600 and similar wheels and, Octalink), Mavic - the Ksyrium and Arses (SP?, I'm going on phoenetics here) fiasco. Icon with defective stems. Cervelo with its gauranteed-to-crack frames....just go on a US product recall site and you'll be amazed.

 

Going through life judging product quality based on the company's name is naive. Didn't Toyota just admit that their Fortuner falls over on rough roads? 

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

My friends Subaru fell over on a rough road the other day .

[Tumbleweed]

er, you don't think the "email hope" thing was a little tongue-in-cheek?

[bustthesickness]

 

er' date=' you don't think the "email hope" thing was a little tongue-in-cheek?[/quote']

 

re: form follows function, I think a downhill rider's needs differ from an XC rider's.

 

I don't mind what you think about Hope Pro II's. I love mine. They're still running smoothly and sweetly after heaps and heaps of pounding, mud, grit, jumps, drops, storms and various other types of abuse, and that is a fact.

 

cheers!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Li Mu Bai]

cant comment on the hopes, but my XT wheelset is great. Almost knocked a kilo off my bikes overall weight, they look bling, and work really well so far. good value for money too.

[Johan Bornman]

er' date=' you don't think the "email hope" thing was a little tongue-in-cheek?[/quote']

 

 

Errr..no. I read the entire comment and interpreted it as: "do you really think you can tell real engineers from credible companies what's what?"

 

 

[MintSauce]

 

 

 

We've been through this before and you still don't seem to grasp the concept.

[/quote']

 

Actually, we haven't been through

this before, so no Legend, I'm not teasing Johan or trying to get a reaction out of him.

 

My argument, in my opinion at least, has basis. That should prove that I'm not trolling.

 

The last time we discussed ratcheting

mechanisms you seemed to fail to understand that the Chris King mechanism does

not use a pawl system. I posted a photograph of the internals of a Chris King

hub and you kept going on about "one pawl engages at a time". I then posted the

above diagram in order to indicate to you the differences between a pawl system

and King's ringdrive. The differences are VAST!

 

You however, never responded to that

posting. Would you like me to go find that thread for you?

 

So how is it that I "don't seem to

grasp the concept" when you didn't answer my last question in this

regard?

 

 

Secondly' date=' when you have a system where multiple teeth engage

supposedly simultaneously, you actually have one tooth engaging.

Machining is just not that accurate that all the teeth have the same

take-up and there is always one tooth/ratched/ringdrive ridge that

takes up the bulk of the engagement. Always.

 

 

You seem to point to a 72-way redundency, which is absurd. One of them is strong enough to take the strain and one does it.[/quote']

A typical CNC machining centre can

manufacture components to within 100th of a millimeter. Think about that for a

second. Do the math if you have to. On the component in question such a tolerance is close enough for the teeth to mesh accurately. Besides, if there was an inaccuracy I would venture to guess that you

would have a system engaging on 70 or 71 out of 72 teeth in stead of having it

engage on just 1.

 

What amuses me is that, for someone

to whom scientific proof is so imperative, you seem quite comfortable to

discount the Ringdrive without even knowing how it works or having seen

one in real life (I assume this because if you had I wouldn't have to post

pictures to explain it to you)

 

 

 

 

Further, on ratchet hubs, it is not the rathes that fails in

engagement, but the rathet that fails in NOT ENGAGING due to dirt, hard

grease etc. Freehub ratches don't fail because the pawl gets crushed or

ratched teeth broken off, therefore your 72-point redundancy issue is

moot.[/quote']

 

Yes....they do. The new XT wheelset is

just one example. I have been in and out of bikeshops ever since the day I

started riding. No....since before I started riding when I was hanging out at

the LBS drooling over bikes. I have seen more failures as a result of pawls

breaking than just seizing up.

 

But that again is just my experience and as

Legend pointed out a while ago, you discount the experiental evidence of others

yet don't mind using your own do back up an argument.

 

Can you substantiate your above claim regarding freewheel failures?

 

 

Finally, you're missing my point. I know you claim to do all your

rides in very eroded singletrack where you cranks cannot make full

revolutions due to the pedals hitting the embankments on both sides and

therefore need a 360/72 degree ratcheting functionality. However, most

of us don't do that. We don't continue to erode dongas by attempting to

ride them and we don't ratchet our way through rides. We pedal in full

circles. Therefore, a pedalling engagement of 360/16 times per

revolution is good enough for us. On a 175mm crank, that is a few

millimeters of travel. Therefore anything more is a waste.

[/quote']

 

Would you please be so kind as to

point me to the thread where I made such claims? All I ever said was that in

technical situations I like the fact that King hubs engage quicker.

 

To some of us quicker engagement matters. If it doesn't to you, then that's

fine by me.

 

Funny that the only people who claim

this as nonsense are the ones that have never ridden these hubs, except maybe

GoLefty?

 

Capish? No,

I didn't think so.

[/quote']

 

It's not that I don't understand. I

simply don't agree with you. There's actually a big difference.

 

You claim to appreciate engineering.

Initially I had a lot of respect for your views since you obviously know a lot

about wheels and engineering. In our first discussion on this matter I mentioned

the Chris Kings as a means of saying "Hey....check these out". I thought you'd

appreciate what I consider to be a good piece of engineering. All I've ever

gotten in return is your god-complex.

 

As you've pointed out before, I don't like you. As anyone who reads one

particular such thread will know, I have lost my cool with you in the

past.

 

In this instance I was trying to be nice and once again correct your

assumption that King hubs are similar to ratchet and pawl systems.

 

What would be nice though is if you

could just have a technical discussion without resorting to your usual

sarcastic, condescending, self-righteous, allmighty attitude.

 

Is it too hard for you to just be nice...?

 

 

 

I've reiterated this point with him before and it keeps on coming

back, with malice. I expect no change this time either. Presumptious

perhaps, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

 

 

Chris King is the holy grail and no-one dares criticise or analyse it.[/quote']

 

I fail to see the malice you speak of in my post?

 

And I certainly don't mind having Chris King components analysed or criticized. If you do a search on this forum, you'll see that in a previous discussion I specifically requested you to have a look at the internals.

 

I even directed you to a shop that would gladly assist.

 

The reason I keep responding is simply because you make your comments and judgements based on assumptions as opposed to any facts or actual experience of Chris King components.

 

Again, using your own opinion and assumptions to belittle the opinions and experiences of others.

 

 

The only thing on the Hub that seems to be above question, criticism and analysis is your word. You once told me to be 'civil' yet whenever someone dares disagree with you they are berated, belittled and insulted.

 

Another case of a little, insecure boy trapped in a man's body.

 

Perhaps you should seek some help so that you can stop projecting your insecurities on to others. Maybe then you too can learn to play nice.

 

 

[GoLefty!!]

 

Is a faster engaging freebub an advantage? I don't think so. Having 35mm of fee play at the crank allows your legs to gain inertia before applying drive to the wheel and that is of bigger benefit than having an instant takeup. I have never felt on any singletrack trail that a faster engagement was an advantage. It's just good marketing

Why settle for 35mm' date=' perhaps 60mm or even more will give you even better inertia!  Perhaps you should experiment in that direction.  Or do do you consider Shimano's hubs to have the optimal amount of take up?
It's just good marketing [/quote']

 

 

35mm is fine. it does not hamper my riding experience.

Paying more for a smaller engagement angle is a load of tosh. R11k for wheels, you kiddingme, I can buy a new LEFTY for that cash.

 

Shimano's engagement angle is sufficient. I don;t need anything smaller.

 

And as Mr Bornman says, I can replace the thing when it wears out. Other brands I'l ahve to replace the entire hub.

GoLefty!!2008-11-17 07:53:52

[bustthesickness]

GoLefty, for 'YOUR' riding it might be fine, for others, it might NOT be fine.

 

So you're saying don't buy an Aston Martin cos a CitiGolf is sufficient. Does the same job surely? What a waste of money, except when you drive one.

 

MintSauce, you are a legend. +1000 At least I'll know where NOT to go to have my wheels built.

 

"We don't continue to erode dongas by attempting to

ride them and we don't ratchet our way through rides. We pedal in full

circles."

 

WOW! arrogant eh.

 

Anyways, I'm off to go and 'erode a donga'

[GoLefty!!]

 

Is a faster engaging freebub an advantage? I don't think so. Having 35mm of fee play at the crank allows your legs to gain inertia before applying drive to the wheel and that is of bigger benefit than having an instant takeup. I have never felt on any singletrack trail that a faster engagement was an advantage. It's just good marketing

I dont know about this. Personally' date=' for me, I'd rather have a hub that engages exactly when I need it to.
[/quote']

 

 

??? Are you implying the engagement in Shimno hubs is random, that there is a little alien inside with a pin  in one hand and sucking the thumb of his other?

That this little alien decides when to slot the pin in to engage the drive mechanism?? Surely not. Like I said in previous posts, take me to the alien and I will believe you. Until then I believe the pawls in my XTR hubs engage very reliably, everytime.

 

 

I have ridden this I9, CK and Hope wheels, I have never felt the faster engagement to be a benefit or in fact noticable.

 

I would buy the I9 wheels because they are interesting but they are too expensive for my curiosity. I'd rather spend the cash on a Maingard Accoustic.

 

CK hubs are also beautiful, handmade jewels. This is the reason I desire them, not because of Ring drive or anthing other. they also have fantastic tools, beautifully engineered. I would purchase the hubs and tools for their beauty. Basically the same reason I love beautiful women. fantastic engineering. Wonderful touch and play with, undress and havemy way with. Yes I am Shallow but I can live with that.

 

Hubs, have to do a few jobs and they have to do it well. XTR' or XT's do the job more than well enough. That wayi can have more money for women, they are expensive afterall.

[bustthesickness]

You have between zero and 35mm movement before it engages. While YOU might not need more accurate engagement, others might. I think after your 'inertia' comment, your opinion is useless to me.

 

 

 

bustthesickness2008-11-17 08:25:49

[MintSauce]

 

 

35mm is fine. it does not hamper my riding experience.

Paying more for a smaller engagement angle is a load of tosh. R11k for wheels' date=' you kiddingme, I can buy a new LEFTY for that cash.

 

Shimano's engagement angle is sufficient. I don;t need anything smaller.

 

And as Mr Bornman says, I can replace the thing when it wears out. Other brands I'l ahve to replace the entire hub.

[/quote']

 

 

Just as a matter of interest, all components on the CK hubs are replacable, including the driveshell and all internal hub parts such as the drive rings, all parts sold individually and not as a unit.