Canaris Posted December 29, 2008 Share Bike geometry is largely related to rider geometry. Yes head tube angle is very important, do to the stability of the bike. Some riders confuse fit with geometry. A shorter/ smaller bike will feel diferent from a larger bike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Bornman Posted December 30, 2008 Share Cut cut cut cutBut the geometry is important. Rather than try to summarise it here' date=' The book Serious Cycling by Edmund R Burke has a chapter "Perfect Positioning" which deals with the relationships between the various components of the bike in respect to performance. Eg, the relationship of angle of seat tube to the ground and your leg length, the length of your stem in relation to your torso length, etc. Its a must get book for any competitive cyclist. [/quote'] Edmund doesn't have much credibility around here. He isn't much of a physicist. Do a search here on The Hub for some prize comments and bloopers he makes in his books. Don't confuse size with geometry, as someone else here has said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johan Bornman Posted December 30, 2008 Share I am no guru' date=' but what i can say is that on an MTB, going from a Merida (relaxed head angle) to a mongoose. It was quite a big change. the Mongoose was fun and nippy until the singletrack got a bit long. Then the Merida with the more "Relaxrd"head angle became more fun, or should I say easier to deal with. Not as eay to throw about, but if used a bit slower I could run "Faster" for longer............ or maybe this is just perception. I am back on a Merida and feel way more comfortable now. Oh yes and the heas angle is the only significant difference between the two. Just my 2ZAR's. Not to say the one is better than the other, just that there are horses for corses.[/quote'] The only things about this confusing statement I understand or agree with are the four opening words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwissVan Posted December 30, 2008 Share you left out frame material (carbon' date=' steel, Ti, etc) & [/quote'] I saw a test by Tour magazine where they took 8 frames, made from carbon, Ti, Alu, and a 1970s steel frame. They put the same components & wheels on, added fearings to disguise the frame shape. They then added small weights till they all weighed the same. The frames were then painted grey all over. A group of riders then tested the frames over 2 weeks. Long 3 hr rides over the 1st week, and shorter rides during the 2nd week, changing bikes multiple times per day. They found that the riders could not tell the difference between the frames, like which ones were carbon and which were alu. They could not even id the 1970 steel frame. *hijack* Soooo this just proves what my wife always knew (they should have just asked her)?.<?: prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />Needing to purchase a new bike is result of falling prey to good marketing. Other than weight saving benefits there seems to be little valid scientific reason to waste money buying the latest model bikes (road bikes that is) What a let down? *bijack* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christie Posted December 30, 2008 Share @ Yang & 1ktt: The article is on the www at:http://content.delius-klasing.de/interfaces/payment/?id=188 It is in German, it has some pics, at least. I work for a German company, will see if one of my German colleagues' kids want to earn some extra pocket money translating it for me. PS I would also like to think I will be ablel to tell the difference, but after looking at the article, I won't bet money on it, though. Perhaps cyclists are suckers, easy prey to marketers Christie2008-12-30 02:57:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwissVan Posted December 30, 2008 Share @ Yang & 1ktt: The article is on the www at:http://content.delius-klasing.de/interfaces/payment/?id=188 It is in German' date=' it has some pics, at least. I work for a German company, will see if one of my German colleagues' kids want to earn some extra pocket money translating it for me. [/quote'] Summed up it says "Die Ehefrau kennt die wahreit..." The wife knows the truth.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yang Posted December 30, 2008 Share @ Yang & 1ktt: The article is on the www at:http://content.delius-klasing.de/interfaces/payment/?id=188 It is in German' date=' it has some pics, at least. I work for a German company, will see if one of my German colleagues' kids want to earn some extra pocket money translating it for me. PS I would also like to think I will be ablel to tell the difference, but after looking at the article, I won't bet money on it, though. Perhaps cyclists are suckers, easy prey to marketers [/quote'] Christie, I reckon that we're ALL bombarded with marketing hype that is designed to makes us feel that our current product- car, phone, sound system, bike part, surfboard, running shoe, margarine, soap powder, etc etc, is not good enough, so that we get to consume their one. They latch onto our need for approval, our uncertainties, need for oneupmanship, etc, to sell. Then there are those of us who understand the marketing strat's and are a little more immune to their BS and therefore able to resist them. Unless you're talking of a new Campag groupset, then all my defences erm, well, excuse me while I go and touch my new gruppo.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hawk CT Posted December 30, 2008 Share I wasn't comfortable with my bike's handling. I tried different stem lengths and seat laybacks' date=' nothing helped. I went for a fitting at the Sports Science Institute in Newlands and it was suggested that I needed a frame with a longer horizontal toptube length. I got a frame that's 27mm longer, and used a 10mm shorter stem (17mm nett), and I cannot believe how great my "new" bike feels! I agree that most geometries on bikes are so similar that it doesn't make a difference. However, I'm now convinced that each person has an ideal frame length. Determine that first, then find one that comes closest.[/quote'] Jeroen Swart at SSISA is the best guy i have come across with regard to bike setup... i had a friend cycling for 5 years with knee pain. He was at all the top shops in Cape Town over the years for setups... no luck ( about 6 sets up paid for hey). One visit to Jeroen and he was pain free after the first ride... it says alot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edition 507 Posted December 30, 2008 Share I am no guru The only things about this confusing statement I understand or agree with are the four opening words. Sjoe JB, but your cutting wit is like a slash to the jugular Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edition 507 Posted December 30, 2008 Share @ Yang & 1ktt: The article is on the www at:http://content.delius-klasing.de/interfaces/payment/?id=188 It is in German' date=' it has some pics, at least. I work for a German company, will see if one of my German colleagues' kids want to earn some extra pocket money translating it for me. PS I would also like to think I will be ablel to tell the difference, but after looking at the article, I won't bet money on it, though. Perhaps cyclists are suckers, easy prey to marketers [/quote'] Any hubbers volunteering to translate it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwissVan Posted December 30, 2008 Share @ Yang & 1ktt: The article is on the www at:http://content.delius-klasing.de/interfaces/payment/?id=188 It is in German' date=' it has some pics, at least. I work for a German company, will see if one of my German colleagues' kids want to earn some extra pocket money translating it for me. PS I would also like to think I will be ablel to tell the difference, but after looking at the article, I won't bet money on it, though. Perhaps cyclists are suckers, easy prey to marketers [/quote'] Any hubbers volunteering to translate it? Nooo !! To much for my brain and not enough time left today.... Rob"The Legend" should have no problems tho... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazyTrailRider Posted December 30, 2008 Share I just want to point out that we don't steer with movements of the handlebar but with leaning into the corner. I can prove this by riding no-hands and steering into the corner without making movements to the bar. Fair enough. I should've been more articulate in my description, my point being that a downhill bike is not so much steered (I'm generalising here) as "thrown around". Specifically, in comparison to a road or XC bike. Of course there is both steering and leaning involved in all cases, but it's the proportionate efforts which differentiate things. I think the best demonstration would be the akwardness a road rider feels on a DH bike... "It doesn't want to turn, WTF?!" And yes, you're quite correct about the discussion being around the average bike. DH bikes are rather odd machines in comparison. So are rickshaws, skateboards and F16s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yang Posted December 30, 2008 Share QUOTE=Johan Bornman] <?: prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> Cut cut cut cutBut the geometry is important. Rather than try to summarise it here' date=' The book Serious Cycling by Edmund R Burke has a chapter "Perfect Positioning" which deals with the relationships between the various components of the bike in respect to performance. Eg, the relationship of angle of seat tube to the ground and your leg length, the length of your stem in relation to your torso length, etc. Its a must get book for any competitive cyclist. [/quote'] Edmund doesn't have much credibility around here. He isn't much of a physicist. Do a search here on The Hub for some prize comments and bloopers he makes in his books. Don't confuse size with geometry, as someone else here has said. JB, I remember the posts and criticisms from some time back about Burke, much as I remember some angry vitriol against you as well- that's the value of debate and different opinions and facts- it makes for better decisions and improvements. I thought you may come back at me about my mention of Burke. But there are others who have their own opinions about geometry, such as Richard Ballantyne. I can't fault what you said from my limited experience. But why is it that my best times along my 33km training road route are better on my Kona than on my Giant, after numerous rides on both. My Kona has a longer wheelbase than the Giant TCR 0 compact frame, and the top tube + stem is about 2 cm's longer on the Kona? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazyTrailRider Posted December 30, 2008 Share But why is it that my best times along my 33km training road route are better on my Kona than on my Giant' date=' after numerous rides on both. My Kona has a longer wheelbase than the Giant TCR 0 compact frame, and the top tube + stem is about 2 cm's longer on the Kona?[/quote'] The answer is simple, Yang. It's not that your Kona is more efficient, it's that it puts you in a more efficient position. So it's not the bike's geometry that is faster or slower (or whatever else), but the effect the particular setup has on your body position. Although you might be quicker on the Kona, someone else could very well be quicker on the Giant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yang Posted December 30, 2008 Share @ Yang & 1ktt: The article is on the www at:http://content.delius-klasing.de/interfaces/payment/?id=188 It is in German' date=' it has some pics, at least. I work for a German company, will see if one of my German colleagues' kids want to earn some extra pocket money translating it for me. PS I would also like to think I will be ablel to tell the difference, but after looking at the article, I won't bet money on it, though. Perhaps cyclists are suckers, easy prey to marketers [/quote'] Any hubbers volunteering to translate it? Nooo !! To much for my brain and not enough time left today.... Rob"The Legend" should have no problems tho... C'mon Swissvan- Just ein or zwei paragraphs a tag. Wir kann wachten fur unseren daily Next Exciting Episode. Ich spreche auch Deutsch, aber das emphasis is on das word "weinig", so ich kann ist nicht do, otherwise ich would volunteer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sequoia Posted December 30, 2008 Share I WOULD like a bike with longer chain stays. With my saddle high enough, I'm sitting so far back, I'm almost behind my rear wheel... One more reason why 29ers make sense for tall people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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