Jules Posted March 10, 2009 Posted March 10, 2009 Just to stir the pot a little: JB, you mentioned in a previous post that chain and sprocket life is a function of hygiene, not necessarily kilometers traveled. You cited an example of a timing chain of a motorbike, which is enclosed and hence lasts forever. So let's postulate that Roders, being a fastidious engineer, has designed an enclosure for his drivetrain, similar to those found on commuting bikes in Holland. Also, he has not mentioned what speed his bike is. He could be running old, thick, six-speed casettes and chains, which would have a longer life than the new-fangled stuff.
Speed Devil Posted March 10, 2009 Posted March 10, 2009 Just to stir the pot a little: JB' date=' you mentioned in a previous post that chain and sprocket life is a function of hygiene, not necessarily kilometers traveled. You cited an example of a timing chain of a motorbike, which is enclosed and hence lasts forever. So let's postulate that Roders, being a fastidious engineer, has designed an enclosure for his drivetrain, similar to those found on commuting bikes in Holland. Also, he has not mentioned what speed his bike is. He could be running old, thick, six-speed casettes and chains, which would have a longer life than the new-fangled stuff. [/quote'] I found this on page 5 I did say cassettes' date=' I have three sets of wheels, one with ultegra and two with 105, all nine speed. I have never had to change any of them when putting a new chain. Johan you should know the secret to casette longevity is renewing the chain before it starts to show any signs off measurable wear.[/quote'] I used squirt for a while, but after app 100km my chain would start to squeak. Due to the wax being thicker it does not penetrate between the side plates of the links, but only lubricates the chain superficially.I have now gone back to using Q20....I can live with a black chain
Johan Bornman Posted March 10, 2009 Posted March 10, 2009 Just a little facetious play on my prediction that the story will change and will be edited and construed to make it fit and eventually have Pontius Pilate declare that 25000 on a cassette that shows no sign of wear, is possible. Tippex (Tipex?) is white correcting fluid that typist used not so long ago.
Johan Bornman Posted March 10, 2009 Posted March 10, 2009 Just to stir the pot a little: JB' date=' you mentioned in a previous post that chain and sprocket life is a function of hygiene, not necessarily kilometers traveled. You cited an example of a timing chain of a motorbike, which is enclosed and hence lasts forever. So let's postulate that Roders, being a fastidious engineer, has designed an enclosure for his drivetrain, similar to those found on commuting bikes in Holland. Also, he has not mentioned what speed his bike is. He could be running old, thick, six-speed casettes and chains, which would have a longer life than the new-fangled stuff. [/quote'] Jules, to treat your question/statement more seriously: Yes, sprocket life is a function of hygiene. The timing chain is not only enclosed, but also runs in a bath of filtered oil. Mileage does come into play but the reason I always say mileage on a bike is a useless measure of chain life is because hygiene dominates in open chains. A dirty chain that never gets ridden will obviously last forever. ('scuse the over explanation but the vultures are waiting to tear bits of flesh off). You cannot clean your bike chain well enough and often enough to mimick these clean oil bath conditions. The enclosure will not only have to be dust-proof, but also contain a clean bath of filtered oil. Six-speed cassettes (thicker) will help cassette life, six-speed chains will aid chain life. Yes, this will last longer than new-fangled stuff. You would easily get 25 000kms on a cassette if you don't cross-chain too badly. Cross-chaining fretts the sprocket away sideways, causing a thin pressure face that eventually collapses under high loads. Chainrings, as opposed to sprockets, often fail in this mode. Johan Bornman2009-03-10 10:20:51
Edition 507 Posted March 10, 2009 Posted March 10, 2009 My sponser/bike shop will testify to the amount of cassette's he has supplied me. Ag shame man, you need to find a new sponsor/bike shop, as your current ones seem real tight with their money And if you upgrade to 10 or even 11 speed you will be able to get so much more mileage out of those clusters as the load and wear will be spread over a sprocket or two more. JB, would you be able to calculate how much further Roders could ride with two extra sprockets before the cassettes needed replacing?
Jules Posted March 10, 2009 Posted March 10, 2009 Just to stir the pot a little: JB' date=' you mentioned in a previous post that chain and sprocket life is a function of hygiene, not necessarily kilometers traveled. You cited an example of a timing chain of a motorbike, which is enclosed and hence lasts forever. So let's postulate that Roders, being a fastidious engineer, has designed an enclosure for his drivetrain, similar to those found on commuting bikes in Holland. Also, he has not mentioned what speed his bike is. He could be running old, thick, six-speed casettes and chains, which would have a longer life than the new-fangled stuff. [/quote'] ? ? I found this on page 5 ? I did say cassettes' date=' I have three sets of wheels, one with ultegra and two with 105, all nine speed. I have never had to change any of them when putting a new chain. Johan you should know the secret to casette longevity is renewing the chain before it starts to show any signs off measurable wear.[/quote'] ? I used squirt for a while, but after app 100km my chain would start to squeak. Due to the wax being thicker it does not penetrate between the side plates of the links, but only lubricates the chain superficially. I have now gone back to using Q20....I can live with a black chain Alright, I'm guilty of not reading the entire 9-page thread I've had a similar experience to you with Squirt. I couldn't get it to penetrate the links. 100km would be enough for me, because it's my MTB chain, and I clean and lube after every ride. I haven't had a chance to ride the Squirted chain yet, but I have my reservations over how it'll work. I'm considering using a hot-air gun next time I apply Squirt. I think this might make the wax more liquid and allow it to penetrate the links better. Any thoughts from the panel of experts? Jules2009-03-10 15:48:20
Roders Posted March 10, 2009 Posted March 10, 2009 A bit of science behind chain lube. chains and gears run under extreme pressure conditions "EP" so you need an EP lubricant, that is why gear oils come with an EP rating.Once the chain has engaged with the blade or sprocket the only friction is between the pin and roller of the chain, only if you ride big blade front and big cog at the back(crossover) do you start to get friction between chain plates and gears. Therefore lubrication is only needed between between pin and rollers of the chain, lube on the outside of the chain only collects dust and makes grinding paste.(even more critical off road)Because of the pressure generated when pedaling, if you do not use an "EP" lube all you are doing is squeezing the lube out of the chain and it is not long before your chain is noisy and you have grinding paste on the outside of the chain.Cyclists by nature do not want to see a chain drive that appears sluggish, (when you spin the crank backwards it must spin freely) and so use very thin oils, defeating the object.Chain wax should be very good but is not easy to get into the chain where it is needed, that is why an EP grease in a solvent is so good. It gets the lube into the pin & roller and then the solvent evaporates leaving the lube where it must be. No "magic" here just common engineering sense no???
Dirtbreath Posted March 10, 2009 Posted March 10, 2009 The problems with lubes is that we expect miracles and the manufacturers and their marketing spin doctors sieze this opportunity and feed us the BS that we lap up in a crazed frenzy. There is no lube that you can just slap on and ride merrily for 1000's of kays. I cannot use waxes as I cannot clean the chain afterwards. An oil (anyone of them) although dirty during the ride is really easy to clean off afterwards using a chain scrubber or quick link and bottle. What also makes a huge difference is cleaning any excess lube off the chain before the ride. Only the inside should be wet. Pouring the stuff on and applying just before you ride is asking for problems. I use leftover car oil (from oil changes, the clean stuff) and I can say that it is no worse than the R60 a bottle you pay for in a bike shop. It is no better either though.
madison Posted March 10, 2009 Posted March 10, 2009 Successfull lubrication has less to do with which lube you use & more to do with proper application.
Underachiever Posted March 11, 2009 Posted March 11, 2009 Interesting debate: I use Squirt for a number of years now and yes it will not penetrate the chain immediately, but liquid viscosity is a function of temperature, so it penetrates better in hot weather vs. winter. So I rotate the chain a few times, wait for a few hours and then go ride. Need to relube about every 300 km or whenever I wash my bike. Squirt does not like to get wet at all. Fo cassette wear. I have two 10 speed Campy cassettes; one has done 18 824km and the other 4 042. The former still runs beautifully and I am now on my 6th chain. Chain life for the 6 chains (in km) stated below:4 8084 9164 8115 0854 597925 (still running) To run > 20 000 km on the older casette is most likely. Oh and by the way. I use Squirt since it sounds fancier than to use Q20 (and the chain runs a bit cleaner). Nothing wrong with Q20 and used it for many many years.
Johan Bornman Posted March 11, 2009 Posted March 11, 2009 Successfull lubrication has less to do with which lube you use & more to do with proper application. Think about your statement for a minute. Now tell us who in his right mind applies lube the wrong way. And what is the wrong way? You schlobber the stuff on the chain and that's it. What can go wrong? It has to do with the lubrication. The wrong stuff - solids or ultra-low viscocity Q-something and you have no effective lubrication after a few kilometers.
Johan Bornman Posted March 11, 2009 Posted March 11, 2009 Interesting debate: I use Squirt for a number of years now and yes it will not penetrate the chain immediately' date=' but liquid viscosity is a function of temperature, so it penetrates better in hot weather vs. winter. So I rotate the chain a few times, wait for a few hours and then go ride. Need to relube about every 300 km or whenever I wash my bike. Squirt does not like to get wet at all. [/quote'] I think your observation is flawed. Squirt, after solidifying, does not become liquid again at ambient temperature. You'll have to go into the upper 50 or 60 degrees Celcius to liquify that stuff again. And at the lower end of our ambient temperature it is still a solid. I don't think there is any difference in flow performance between our coldest and hottest days. If it didn't penetrate the chain when you applied it, it will never penetrate the chain, it being a solid after a while. Squirt does achieve some penetration because it is dissolved and flows by capiliary action into cavities where the carrier evaporates and leaves the solid behind. The problem then starts, it cannot re-flow after it was squeezed out of the pressure face. I don't know what you mean by it not liking water. In fact, it is completely impervious to water. This is evident from when you are trying to wash the bike and remove the gunk from your jockey wheel and chain sideplates. Where it really matters, inside, it is long gone by the time you wash your bike. It migrates out and settles where it is not needed and certainly not wanted. In MTB conditions it simply mixes with the dirt and flakes off, but water doesn't play a role in its disappearance.
AndreZA Posted March 11, 2009 Posted March 11, 2009 can someone tell me why my MTB drivetrain is much cleaner after a ride then my road bike. I use the same lube on both. Both is ridden in dry conditions. .
splat Posted March 11, 2009 Posted March 11, 2009 JB - The right lube applied in the incorrect manner can be useless - if you look @ White Lightning and Rock & Roll and all the stuff that you dont like to use...
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