Jan Begemann Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 The question should not be "Why do you lube?". That is very clear, to make your chain run smooth with less friction and less wear. The question actually is: What are you trying to achieve by cleaning the chain? Do you want to maintain your drivetrain or just make it look nice and clean? When I clean my chain I don't want to remove the oil, I want to remove the dirt. So why using degreaser? That removes what keeps your chain alive. Use degreaser whereever you want to remove oil and grease from places where it shouldn't be, like frame, chainrings, etc. Using degreaser on your chain just makes the chain wear out quicker. Clean the chain either like Johan suggested with water and soap or put dry lube on a piece of cloth and use this to clean the chain. After that take another clean piece of cloth and wipe off the oil from the chain surface. Or if you want to support the spare parts sales of your LBS use a high pressure cleaner. After 2 years of doing the neutral service at the Epic I can say that 80% of all failures in parts like rear derailleurs, BBs, cables, etc. came from cleaning the bike with a high pressure cleaner. @Brighter-Lights: FYI the water intrusion from high pressure cleaners is more than 100 times higher than from rain or soapy water.
TNOSE_E Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 High Pressure Cleaner - 3 words.... Two words: water intrusion No more water intrusion than riding in the rain' date=' or than cleaning with soapy water! After cleaning I leave the bike in the sun for a few mins and when the chain is dry I relube... I don't worry about water intrusion because there's none. I've taken the crank off after cleaning with a WAP and there's not a drop of water inside the BB.... Once every month I relube derailleur pivots. If you're stupid enough to sit and scrub your chain for 30 minutes that your problem. I've also done that in the past. Use oil for lube... Use WAP to clean. Chains does get wet when riding anyway. WAP removes crud in seconds... If you're aiming the WAP at the seal then you need help... I stand by the WAP... and real OIL... my experience has tought me the most effective and quickest way. Nobody's opinion will change my mind. [/quote'] Ahhhh another one is turned to the dark side of power washers........ Soon there will be world domination....
Capricorn Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 i've seen almost all the UCI World Cup DH teams using power washers to clean their bikes. Just avoid the seals and you should have zero problems. As for the wax lubes, i'm not convinced either. Been using squirt after my LBS recommended it. Gave it to me for free cos he made me wait longer than I he had promised, but after seeing the gunk on my chain and drive train, i'm not entirely convinced it's overally the best.Granted, all chains that have some sort of lube that sticks to the chain, will have dirt stick as well. Now just to find the lube that minimizes the gunk. Going to switch to oil lubes and compare then. Frankly, would rather have a lube that mostly gets flung off the chain than sticks there and catches crap that stuffs up my drive train.
BrendonMyb Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 Nevermind i found it - Im gonna give this a try. okay on 2nd thougths i dont know so much, looking at the pic i see a wax layer down at the bottom, which is what im trying to stay away from. s*#t man, i dont know ? BumpNgrind2009-07-30 02:01:30
Azonic Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 I use a very light oil type lube on my MTB's, made by Probike/Raleigh. Chain Creep if I'm not mistaken, has a photo of Kevin Evans on, sells for like R20. Used to use Finish Line XC lube (green cap), but that stuff is glue for dirt).
Johan Bornman Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 Another question: <?: prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> To start with, why do you lube? Do you lube the chain to extend the life of the chain or the drive train? The reason I ask is from the post regarding measuring chain wear, the wear that the rollers experience does not contribute to chain wear, only wear on the inner pins/inner plate at the interface between the said pin and the inner plate. So the question, from the chain wear and lubrication perspective, should be what is the best way to get lube in that interface and keep it there. But then from the drive train wear side you want to lube the external roller - chainring/sprocket interface to prolong the life of the gear profile. But in doing so you pick up dirt and what not and form a grinding paste, and does this not mitigate the benefit of lube in the first place? At least this is my thinking around the topic. So in essence what are the mechanisms for wear that lubricating needs to curb?[/quote'] Good question, one I suspect most people don't understand well either. If you could lube and operate the chain without getting oil on the outside of the rollers, it would be great. As you observed, the rollers don't enter into a state of friction against the sprocket. It moves against the sprocket and then stays there, whilst the stuff inside rotates inside it. We thus wan lube inside only. This is impractical. Besides, lube being fluid, will migrate and contaminate the rollers in anyway, so you may as well apply the lube to the roller, where it will be squeezed sideways by the sprocket and enter the cavities beneath though capillary action. The mechanism for wear is the articulating sideplates on the rollers. As for the suggestion by Jan that we want to clean the dirt, but not the oil. Well, that's just not practical. The dirt and oil is intertwined and removing one, removes the other. Anyone who laments that degreaser strips the layer of lube off the steel, has read too many Lux adverts. This is not skin where the "natural oil balance should remain in harmony with the body's PH and bla bla bla." Degreaser strips it all off and we then put clean oil back. This photo is of my chain. Cleaned meticulously with Prepsol and water (this is before I purchased an ultrasonic cleaner), then lubed and then rode for 50-kms in dust. Try and imagine a process that will remove the grit but leave the oil behind. It is not going to happen. Note how the oil has penetrated (I put one half drop on every second link only), and how the dirt has ingressed. To me this proves that lubrication is a compromise action. If you do, you're buggered, if you don't you're buggered. The best example of what clean chain lube does for chain life can be found on a motorbike. It has two chains. The timing chain runs inside the engine and is lubricated by filtered oil. It lasts the lifetime of the engine, even though it is short (i.e undergoes many cycles) and it articulates sharply over two small sprockets. The other chain drives the back wheel. It is big, strong, O-ring protected and long. However, it lasts a mere 5 000 kms or so. The difference is hygiene.
Tumbleweed Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 I use a very light oil type lube on my MTB's' date=' made by Probike/Raleigh. Chain Creep if I'm not mistaken, has a photo of Kevin Evans on, sells for like R20. Used to use Finish Line XC lube (green cap), but that stuff is glue for dirt). [/quote'] don't know if i'd endorse a product and have my pic on it if was called that! to clean, park tool handheld cleaner with degreaser.to lube, squirt.
BrendonMyb Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 quick question, ive never gone to look for squirt which most seem to recomend here. Can one buy this at any LBS. My specific LBS only stocks Rock n Roll, White lightning & motorex so sorry for my ignorance but where would i find this so that i can go have a look at the texture & quality of this lube before just buy
Tumbleweed Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 quick question' date=' ive never gone to look for squirt which most seem to recomend here. Can one buy this at any LBS. My specific LBS only stocks Rock n Roll, White lightning & motorex so sorry for my ignorance but where would i find this so that i can go have a look at the texture & quality of this lube before just buy[/quote'] it's quite common, but i guess it depends on the shop. you can get it in a small R10 bottle if you just want to try it.
Brighter-Lights Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 @Brighter-Lights: FYI the water intrusion from high pressure cleaners is more than 100 times higher than from rain or soapy water. I'm amused... On average, I ride about 16 000km offroad per year. Each 32 000km I go through: 4 sets of derailleur pulleys (R800) 8 chains (R1000) 2 sets of chainrings (R1300) 2 cassettes (R1000) 2 sets wheel bearings (American Classic wheels) (R600)1 rear derailleur (R700) I drilled the cable guides to accept full length outer housing. It's a fact that I spend a lot less on my bike than most people. I don't pay R300 for a bike clean. I power wash it (5 mins) and once a month or second month do a bearing/lube service (1 hour) (pop the bearing seals out, add new grease, clean if needed) How much does the everage rider spend per year on bike services and time in the shop? + parts because of poor maintenance? How much water can enter a chain? or how much water can enter your chainrings and cassette? you have to be really stupid to argue with this one - or never have used a pressure cleaner and inspected / disassebled the parts afterwards... Using parrafin does a lot more harm, it goes past seals and wash out grease. If you don't aim the pressure spray near the seals, it can't get in. Period.
Brighter-Lights Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 The question should not be "Why do you lube?". That is very clear' date=' to make your chain run smooth with less friction and less wear. The question actually is: What are you trying to achieve by cleaning the chain? Do you want to maintain your drivetrain or just make it look nice and clean? When I clean my chain I don't want to remove the oil, I want to remove the dirt. [/quote'] Unfortunately, if you ride far on a dayly basis, like I do, you'll discover that dirt gets in between the rollers. If the chain gets to the halfway point of it's lifetime, fine sand WILL enter the rollers and mix with oil, creating a nice grinding paste... You can't just wipe the chain and think the rollers and pins are clean, unless you ride once a week and have a brand new chain. At some point in the chains life, tolerances will get bigger and sand will enter.... by using the high pressure cleaner, I remove oil AND sand, inside and outside. After a quick dry in the sun and a relube it's as new. A good example is: take one of these chain cleaning devices and start cleaning your chain.... and LISTEN.... you can clearly hear the sand inbetween the rollers grinding and crushing once it gets wet. No rinse gets that out... you can cycle that chain through those brushes for 10 minutes or longer... the grinding paste noise doesn't really go away, because you're washing your chain with dirty detergent (it cycles through the same bath and all the crud mixes with the cleaner in the bath.. ) It's just logic to get rid of the grinding paste and then relube it... It's a different situation if the chain is brand new and the rollers are still tight. But how long does it stay like that?
Jan Begemann Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 @Brighter-Lights: FYI the water intrusion from high pressure cleaners is more than 100 times higher than from rain or soapy water. ? I'm amused... ? On average' date=' I ride about 16 000km offroad per year. ? Each 32 000km?I go through: ? 4?sets of derailleur?pulleys (R800)? 8?chains (R1000) 2?sets of chainrings (R1300) 2?cassettes?(R1000) ? 2?sets wheel bearings (American Classic wheels) (R600) 1 rear derailleur (R700) ? I drilled the cable guides to accept full length outer housing. ? It's a fact that I spend a lot less on my bike than most?people. I don't pay R300 for a bike clean. I power wash it (5 mins) and once a month or second month do a bearing/lube service (1 hour) (pop the bearing seals out, add new grease, clean if needed) ? ? How much does the everage rider spend per year on bike services and time in the shop? + parts because of poor maintenance? ? How much water can enter a chain? or how much water can enter your chainrings and cassette? you have to be really stupid to argue with this one - or never have used a pressure cleaner and inspected / disassebled the parts afterwards... ? Using parrafin does a lot more harm, it goes past seals and wash out grease. ? If you don't aim the pressure spray near the seals, it can't get in. Period.[/quote'] Don't call me stupid, I don't call you stupid either. And I also don't hold my "cycling career and experience" up here to proof I'm right even though I could beat you easily on this one. Back to the facts: Obviously you don't damage a chainring by using high pressure. And you are right, if you don't aim the pressure spray near the seals, everything will be fine. But how do you clean your chain and cassette without spraying your rear hub? Maybe that's why you needed new hub bearings, because normally those bearings should last nearly forever? I also never ever needed to replace my rear derailleur because it was worn out.
Dirtbreath Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 quick question' date=' ive never gone to look for squirt which most seem to recomend here. Can one buy this at any LBS. My specific LBS only stocks Rock n Roll, White lightning & motorex so sorry for my ignorance but where would i find this so that i can go have a look at the texture & quality of this lube before just buy[/quote'] If you do an online search for Rock n Roll you will see the recommended application. They claim it is a cleaner and lube in one. They simply spray the stuff on, you use a lot and it is not cheap. I wont knock the product but have used it in the past with less than favourable results. I know many people who are happy with it. I am also not fond of squirt. Really thick, gunks up the rollers and chainrings.
Brighter-Lights Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 But how do you clean your chain and cassette without spraying your rear hub? Maybe that's why you needed new hub bearings' date=' because normally those bearings should last nearly forever? I also never ever needed to replace my rear derailleur because it was worn out.[/quote'] Easily done. Set the pressure tream to narrow, aim it horizontally towards the back of the bike. No direct pressure near the seals. American Classic MTB wheels need frequent rear bearing replacement because they were under designed. They use 4 tiny 17mm x 26mm x 5mm bearing in the rear hub. They changed the axle thickness recently and solved the problem. Thats why I specifically mentioned 'American Classic' Gives me an idea for the next video series on my website. I'll demonstrate how I do it. A chain is a chain, a very primative method of transferring force. The method of cleaning will just change the lifespan. I've merely tried everything else and found a method that's efficient and quick, which gives great results long term. Brighter-Lights2009-07-30 04:26:08
Christopher Brunsdon Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 I use a very light oil type lube on my MTB's' date=' made by Probike/Raleigh. Chain Creep if I'm not mistaken, has a photo of Kevin Evans on, sells for like R20. Used to use Finish Line XC lube (green cap), but that stuff is glue for dirt).[/quote'] Snap I understand its a great wet lube, but the maintenance is a ballache. Used it 3mths and now sitting in a box. Will use it on my motorbike instead.
Gasping Posted July 30, 2009 Posted July 30, 2009 Gentle People (gender sensitive), What I am hearing as someone who is still trying to figure all this stuff out, is that what you do with your chain is really open to a whole lot of interpretation and personal bias. I read on another thread that under no circumstances should you use motor oil. Now Johan (who looks like he knows what he is talking about across multiple threads and postings) says that this is the best and wax is dodgy. My LBS says Squirt is the bees-knees and all they use. What the h*ll to believe? Any opinions on castor oil???????? I am not having a go at anyone here, just voicing my confusion.
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