DaleE

There is no 'right' answer to the question of how many carbs for racing or training ... each of us is different and you will need to find your own recipe. Personally I train only with water - did 160km on the weekend water only - but that's for LSD stuff. For racing <3hrs, also water only For racing >3hrs then some UCAN (super starch) MTB stage racing, water and macadamia nuts - a good mix of fat with little carbs in. Go back a few pages and you will find an excellent post from Davetapson regarding his burg n bush experience, also some stuff about receptors that may shed some light on carbs during exercise. But, what is really important is to try leaving those carbo drinks at home for a couple of training rides. So what if you bonk once or twice and have to limp home? if you dont try, you will never be free of the crutch Lastly, fat adaption on the bike takes time - months not weeks - don't start this journey if you plan to race in the next month or so - that is a sure way to fail.

It kind of depends how much you have to loose .... Most folk here are cyclists (duh!) so are in reasonable shape already. Losing 20kg's when you have 15%body fat may not be terribly realistic. I should really have expanded more on the post above in terms of training load from here on in. You have done the hard yards ito LCHF; the first 2-3 weeks are the worst. Well done for hanging in there. Now, what is really important is to manage the training load until you are fully burning fat efficiently. For everyday living that may only be another 2-3 weeks, but for exercising, that may be another few MONTHS! My experience is that the best way to accelerate this process is to adopt a Maffetone style program. This means staying below your carb burning threshold for around 2 months. For me that means slow riding, even slower hills and definitely no MTB. This approach will give you the best chance at a quick transition and also get you back to normal training the quickest. Also helps burn fat so the inches reduce Carb threshold HR is roughly 180-age. There was some discussion here about Maffetone's methods. Generally considered good, but not easy.

Look for this one. http://www.credeoils.com/shop/food-oils/coconut-oil/ http://www.credeoils.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Crede-Coconut-Oil-jar-medium-Organic-Virgin-LR-300x300.jpg

I have to be a prophet of doom, but don't hold your breath for an energetic ride tomorrow. You are probably at the lowest point right now in terms of your body's ability to use fat for energy ... the reliance on carbs is going (so you feel better), but the conversion is not complete - that takes a while longer. Good news is you're at the bottom of the dip .... it gets better from here. My suggestion is go for a really slow ride tomorrow ... just idle along. stay at around 60-70% HR-max. What this does is makes very sure your body will not try to look for carbs to burn, but rather burn fat. It takes real patience, just enjoy the scenery and tootle along.

Sorry, was a bit vague about what's nasty ... yes, pretty much anything commonly called 'vegetable' oils, so all the ones you mentioned above. iirc, they are all poly-unsaturates. Olive, coconut, macadamia & avocado oils are what I generally believe are lots better for you, and make up a large portion of calories in my diet. All easy to source and versatile enough to use in many dishes.

They are cooked already ... take straight out the can .. throw over salad or on avo.

Sardines in Olive Oil .... so you know what to look for

Has anyone seen this? The Real Meal Revolution (Paperback) Tim Noakes, Sally-Ann Creed, Johno Proudfoot, David Grier Due out 11 Nov. http://www.loot.co.z...0?referrer=iosa Or read this? Quiet Maverick: Tim Noakes chews the fat http://www.amazon.co..._rd_i=154606011 http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Xxspz5WwL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA278_PIkin4,BottomRight,-70,22_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

There is a range of sardines available at PnP which is packed with olive oil. Not cheap at R32.00 a tin. Brand is King Oscar - they have a variety of flavor and the olive oil ones seem to get put on the bottom shelf, so you have to hunt a bit for them. Agree that corn based oils are not for me.

Is that your "security blanket" ? Seriously, consider Ucan super-starch instead of those ... will have the same carb-supplying effect but without the spike and dip.

Claremont - Cape Town

You can get the 95% from PnP - clearly they don't sell much cause it was on special last month.

Ok, this thread is definitely missing something .... a discussion on chocolate. Dark chocolate (in moderation) seems to get the nod from almost everyone in the Paleo & LCHF community ... even my cardiologist says I should be having some "for medicinal purposes!" We all know Lindt and Frey make a reasonable dark chocolate product, but they are very definitely mass market offerings. Anyone got any other suggestions on good - I mean REALLY good - handmade or boutique style chocolate? In CT we have DV chocolates, made at Fairview wine estate, who make a very nice range of single origin bean products at around 75%. Also found Von Gesau (Franschoek, iirc) make a very nice product. They have a bunch of flavours, espresso and salt are my favourites. So, who has other suggestions for us to try??

google or search this thread will reveal all in short, it's a mix of coffee with some or all of the following added ... coconut oil, flax seed oil, salt, cream, butter. It's not for the feint hearted and everyone seems to have their own recipe/variant that works for them. basic idea is to have this first thing in the morning to give your body LOTS of fat to use during the day. depending on what you put in it, can end up with 1000 calories in one cup! If you want to try it, I suggest you start slow with coffee, cream, 1 tsp coconut oil and a little salt ...

Oooops!! it wasn't supposed to sound like free advertising ... but this thing has honestly resulted in a step change in the way we eat, so I thought I'd share in case others have the similar requirements.

Actually I just throw them loose in the pocket on the back of my cycling jersey .... easier to get to. I find packets are a pain in that you have to fiddle with the things while riding ... invariably half the food ends up on the road and the packet in my mouth Obviously rain or very muddy rides require a packet of sorts.

The following worked for me (2 x Sani, 1 W2W, 1 J2c) I take with me: - 100g macadamia nuts per day. take on the bike and munch as you go. That's all I take on the bike, water and nuts. maybe a little <50g biltong for the >5hr days - 1 avo per day for breakfast. breakfast at stage races is usually carb filled, so an avo and coffee sorts me out for the day. - olive oil. enough for 50ml per day. drink neat or over food. In terms of food, there is always enough protein and lots of salads at stage races. What not to eat: - anything from the water tables ... far to many sugary carb thingies there - any sort of bar ... hi-protein, low carb, lo-taste, hi-anything .... it's all crap (imho!!)

Hi Dave, If you're worried about staying in ketosis, just go for a long ride before you have that toast ... that way your ketones are so high pre-toast that they will still be within range post-toast I experimented with beer and it's effects on BG and ketone levels after exercise. effect is dramatically less then without exercise .. and beer always seems to taste better on a hot day after 3hrs on a bike !!

Ok, I'm going to beg to differ with you here .... Being "low on carbs" is only an issue if your'e burning carbs as your primary fuel source OR if you're going to be doing some very high intensity exercise (2-3hrs of hard racing). Remember that one of the aims/ideas of LCHF is that you are teaching your body to burn FAT not carbs, as it's primary fuel source. So being low on carbs is not an issue. Also remember that if you are new to LCHF, this fat-adaption takes 2-3 weeks for most folk but 2-3 MONTHS before you will see athletic performance come back to pre-LCHF levels. So, don't be stressed if you have just started this and are feeling fine during the day, but slow and low energy and little power on the bike ... that's normal. During this period, concentrate on low-power low-hr slow burn rides ... no hill sprints! Again it's worth noting that you have changed your body's fuel source so there is a period of adaptation. This is of course why there are many stories of cyclists who start LCHF as a New Year's resolution, but fall off the band-wagon in Feb because they cant sustain their Argus training load.

One other thought .... This carb craving / carb flu relapse thing is one of the reasons I don't like the "have a day when you eat any cr@p you like" suggestion. The idea of starting from scratch every Monday cause I had a carb filled sunday is just too depressing for words. I prefer to think of it like this: There are 14-21 meals per week. If I have a slightly higher carb intake for 10% (i.e. 2 meals) then my body seems happy with that. by slightly I mean some sushi with rice or mashed potatoes with meat. NOT pies, chocolates, etc As always, YMMV, but that's what works for me.

Some thoughts for you ... The sugar craving is not unusual. I dont know why it happens (have never found a pattern), but the only way for me to deal with it is abstinence, so either get away from the food, or go eat as much biltong as you can find till you are full. What I do know is that if I dont eat, the craving subsides after and hour. In terms of energy drinks, try ditching them for shorter rides ... water should be fine for 1-2hrs. for longer races, try super starch as an energy drink if you are fat adapted. no spike and probably wont even kick you out of ketosis. Energade is horrible stuff - IMHO The carb-flu effect you experienced sounds a bit extreme. I usually feel lousy for 6-8hrs after pigging out on carbs, but fine after that.

At the risk of sounding like one of those terrible TV advertorials, I've found a little kitchen device that has made a very nice change to the way I'm able to cook - and therefor eat. It's called a Thermomix. Saw them on Oz on holiday in June, promptly came back and bought one. What makes it useful is that, for the first time I can cook everything from scratch. If the idea of making your own pesto or vegetable stock does not appeal to you, don't bother reading the rest of this So, for the last 2 years, I have been trying to really get back to basics with food, and keep a tight control of what I put in my mouth (recent family encounters with epilepsy, cancer and heart attacks have made me a bit more cautious than most!). Also, from reading countless food lables, I've become painfully aware that almost any food that is processed in any way seems to have MSG or preservatives or poly fats, etc, etc .... all the things that I prefer not to eat. The Thermomix allows me to make all sauces, stocks, gravy, etc from scratch with the ingredients I can identify. You can go read the blurb here http://www.thermomix.com.au At R12000 they are certainly not cheap!!! but worth looking at it you want to cook this way.

So, after a long period of 'lurking' and little posting, some of these "I've fallen off the wagon" posts have prompted me to jump in here .... Up until June of this year, my LCHF plan was perfectly on track ... weight down and stable, blood tests awesome, eating controlled, cycling good ... then ... a month long holiday in Oz and a few stressful months at work derailed things. It's been a loooong road to get back on track (mainly changing lazy habits) but things have turned around. What I did was follow my variation of the "spanish Keto Diet" for a month. http://www.nutritionj.com/content/7/1/30 It's not easy, but really helped me reset the metabolism, BG, ketones, etc, etc. It's something I did when I started LCHF and seems to work well for me. For example diet consists of breakfast: eggs, rooibos tea, hard cheese, cold meats lunch: salad, sardines in olive oil (found King Oscar brand at PnP), tuna, ago, etc supper: meat or fish (no chicken), green veg or salad, ago, more olive oil alcohol: 1 glass red wine daily - cardiologist insists snacks: fatty biltong or macadamia nuts Notes on restrictions: don't count total calories, but listen to your body and eat when hungry ... not when the "book" says you should eat zero carbs other than from green veggies no fruit obviously no junk food mono and saturated fats are good ... poly are not no dairy except hard cheese, no alcohol except red wine, coffee limited to 2 espresso's per day eggs are ok take at least 20ml olive oil or macadamia oil daily ... either on food or medicinally restrict protein to <90g per day no dark chocolate during this period Now, all this is obviously very restrictive and it's not sustainable for more than a month or two, but the aim is simply to reset the body (and mind) such that weight is stable and training is good. After that you can then start adding those items like a little more dairy / fruit / coffee / wine slowly once weight / blood tests / etc are stable.

I experienced a very similar pattern. Dont have the numbers with me right now, but cholesterol spiked terribly in first 3-6 months of LCHF, to the point where the cardiologist nearly had a heart attack . After that it dropped dramatically. After 1 year, values were well within good range (if you believe in cholesterol theory). One thing that would bother me is a trigs value of 1.4 .... I believe you should be looking for values around 0.5 or less. May also be a time issue? If your endocrinologist cant help, perhaps Prof Noakes?

You are going to need to share lots more info before anyone can make a determination on calories. Weight, body fat %, caolie breakdown, etc. .... even then, there are 2 schools of thought here: 1. Calories don't count. This always relies on the assumption that you are getting <5% of those calories from carbs, around 75% from fat and the rest from protein, AND that the fats are good quality ones, not trans or poly fats. There was a book "eat fat and grow thin" a while back that subscribed to this view. 2. Calories do count. The basic equation of energy in, energy out is considered sacrosant by some very smart folk. The problem I have with this approach is that measuring calories is only fun for a while. My advice if you believe calories do count is; do it religiously for a month and you will soon learn what foods have many calories. Other thing to watch for is too much protein in the diet. 0.8 - 1.2 grams per kg of LEAN body mass is about right for most folk. This includes cyclists with 10-15 hr/week training schedules. I have also stalled (lost 15kg over that last 18 months, went on holiday for a month, put back 4kg, and now can't shift even 1 gram), but have found an interesting book by Jenny Rule - Diet 101, the truth about low carb diets. She specifically discusses weight stalls ... only just started it so cant really give feedback yet.