Lucky Luke.

Because long before the presence of plasticisers was announced the only likely reason for the presence of clenbuterol all of a sudden in the middle of the tour was a blood transfusion.

I think you guys need to look at this a bit more objectively and with a better understanding of the two orgs. CSA is nothing like PPA, they are totally different in terms of their mandates, level of competence, willingness to communicate with cyclists, the list is endless. PPA is not perfect, they take a lot of flack from me included, but without them we'd really be losing out on a lot. Bottom line is you need to work with them if you want to help cycling in the Western Cape and retain the Argus as an internationally renowned event.

Thanks, you're clearing lots of stuff up here dude. Good to have a man on the inside Can you tell us, what is the relationship between PPA and Cycle Tour Trust? And is David Bellairs the sole director of the trust?

I'm with Tumbles on this. She wants justice and when the investigation came to nothing she lashed out. Doesn't change anything for me.

Doh http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=15230

Will be fantastic to have some transparency around the funds generated by the Argus.

Personally I find it very damning, based on there being no reason for her to lie. Also based on Stephanie McIlvain's behavior after the fact. I get the impression Betsy is a tenacious, principled woman who doesn't like bullies.

In Boonen and Ullrich's cases though I think both were out of competition tests. Boonen was a 2 time loser and seen as an influential role model in Belgium - maybe that's why he got slapped with the ban.

The Belgians have a long history of using recreational drugs including Cocaine for cycling purposes - aka Pot Belge - not MDMA though - more likely to win by blazing a joint downwind from a hotdog stand

Only what she heard in the hospital. The rest would be 2nd hand what Frankie told her.

That's as may be but trying winning a bike race when you are pilled up. You'd probably overheat and cook your insides if you didn't get off at the water point and start hugging the volunteers.

Scotty, are you seriously asking for a list of all the evidence?

Yes we agree work is needed in both camps. The difference is what's at stake. For drivers it's minor inconvenience, a 30 second delay waiting to overtake. For cyclists it is the inconvenience of an early death, a life in a wheelchair, a family with one less member. I'm not sure what you're driving at with PPA's campaign. Vast numbers of motorists have never internalised what the safe passing distance is. If they have they don't act on it. You really should go for a ride on the road to see for yourself. PPA also teach bunch riding skills, lobby for cycling lanes, co-ordinate think bike marshalls for our races and more. They take a lot of flack and they're a small outfit but they're trying to do something at least.

Aggression, flipping the bird, swearing and carrying on - totally the norm for SA's drivers. To me it verges on insane to expect cyclists to lead the way with friendliness. I tend to cycle at, above or just below the speed of the traffic around my neighborhood and I need to concentrate 100% for the duration of my ride just to make sure I make it home. We are the most marginalised and vulnerable group of road users in the country. A country where the roads are internationally renowned for shocking levels of fatalities. The other guy summed it up earlier when he said he thought he was on a drivers forum. Every one of these threads makes me wonder whether you people actually spend much time riding on tar.

I'm not sure we agree on the cause. I think the PPA has the right approach - educating drivers. There are millions of them and only a few thousand of us. By 'us' I mean cyclists using the road. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not sure you are actually riding on the road as you seem to be motivating for cylists to fix this on their own by improving their riding. I cannot fathom how a regular road-using cyclist in South Africa would arrive at that conclusion. I'll do my bit by riding in a sane, life-preserving fashion, being considerate, making room for cars to pass, and suggesting to other riders to do the same. Hopefully clubs will continue to improve marshalling on their rides and educate members on being safe. Beyond that, I'm out of ideas. Fire away if you have any more Cultural shifts take years. Ride on the roads in Europe and I'm sure you'll agree we're very far from where we need to be.

Apparently we're supposed to work within that framework. We must appease the prejudiced masses and this is how we will change things. I don't see it. Didn't work politically and it won't work on the roads.

I know what you mean, drugs are part of it, but I think it's more to do with how the team doctor culture has changed since the late '90s. These days, the rider's form is managed by professional team doctors. Things have become highly competitive at a medical level. Team doctors are controlling the level of performance, testing hematocrits, keeping the guys right up against the legal limits of performance, whereas in the old days riders would have to look after themselves. Bob gives a good example in the case of Landis, who had to manage his own doping strategy. It showed in his erratic performance and probably also in the fact that he got caught.

Is the bigger problem slow-moving cyclists, or driver attitude? This guy is a barely sentient ape, but in his mind, his actions are validated by the national attitude - cars have more right to the road than bikes. That attitude predates our current spate of 3 abreast cycling during the few months prior to the Argus. The Argus itself was a response to riders feeling unsafe on the roads. In the late '70s. The number of cyclists and density of traffic on the roads must have been a fraction of what we see today. Riders being threatened by drivers will persist even if we all ride single file starting today. I do agree with others that public awareness stuff like the PPA campaign and better club cycling is a good starting point to work at changing attitudes. Ultimately it's the driving and cycling culture that needs to change, not our precise distance from the kerb, or the number of riders side by side.

You're confusing me now.. if this happens to me and I shoot him in the face instead of taking his picture, is it the collective fault of all violent motorists? If I do nothing and he beats me to death, it's still down to inconsiderate cyclists? Reallly struggling here... Maybe what you're saying is, if everybody learns to ride considerately, loony's like this will have to take it out on someone else, at home or at the pub? All I know is there's more like this where he came from.

Ok, no point arguing the stats on that.. I can't tell if you're being serious or not. Just on the Clen thing - speaking for the whole thread here - it's still doesn't seem as obvious to others that it's just an indicator of a transfusion. Pointless to take during the tour and never going to come from a supplement. Clenbuterol is absolutely not a drug that will win you the tour. Undoubtedly there were others. Clen is just the one that he accidentally put back into his system at an inopportune moment.

I'm all for renewed relations, which is why I posted that.

How can you possibly argue a rider's actions caused this idiot to brandish a bat? The idea that having to drive a little more slowly than usual merits a beating with a bat is the problem here. Undoubtedly whoever slowed him down was inconsiderate. A beating with a bat is not a rational response to that inconvenience. Well done to Hairy for taking this deluded primate's photo.

What are the chances? Within the human gene pool of professional cyclists, there is one rider who is 3% more gifted than everybody else?

Nope, I would have to say not. Whoever decided to end the investigation controls what happens to the testimony and other evidence. http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/usada-may-struggle-to-study-all-evidence-in-lance-armstrong-investigation

sealant is too important to go for a cheap 'sort of works' option.