AdamA

This Just Popped up https://bikehub.co.za/classifieds/item/hardtail-mountain-bikes/460206/giant-xtc-small-frame

Form my Googling... the bike is a : 2019 Scott Navajo 955 29 Hardtail SR Suntour Coil fork Tektro Hydraulic Breaks Alivo 9 speed

I'm in for R300. Eft Done

Haven't done any Googling but I will liken it to the Sale of a house ( which i have been involved in a as a buyer and a seller) Was Rikus Smit the seller or was he the seller's agent? AgentWhy do you say so? he was advertising/representing someone else's property What are the facts and the legal principles that support your position ? - no answerIf he was an agent, how does this affect your advice? - I would have said you better have your paper work in order.

Here is something I found on my google search... it could be valuable to some of our dealers here on BikeBub "Every person who carries on a business dealing in second-hand goods1 must be registered with the National Commissioner of the SAPS. It is a criminal offence not to do so.2" https://lawfulliving.co.za/book/text/trade-industry--second-hand-goods.html

That's what I have been trying to say. That's why I would buy anything of significant value without inspecting it. That's why Bike Hub Pay came about, to mitigate some (not all) of the risks to the buyer (and seller)

Hi Edge, Thanks for your comment. Yes, maybe I need to be careful of where I get my advice. Yes the seller admitted there were problems (FD and Crank) which he offered to rectify but after the buyer said he was going the legal route things stopped to allow the legal proceedings to take effect (I ASSume) The buyer also admitted that he took it for a test ride (although he omitted it from the OP) and also admitted 'All looks good', [2021/01/15, 11:44:24] Luke: Hi. Got the bike! All looks good. Are the original decals under the new ones? I think (for what its worth (which seems to be less with every post I make)), there is a moral responsibility from the seller to either admit he didn't inspect the bike properly when he received it, or that the RD Impact could have happened in his possession. We are forgetting that prior to the sale the seller no dodgy dealings, and subsequently, after the sale has had 11 more 5* reviews. Regarding payment ... from Buyer's whatsApp Transcript: [2021/01/08, 15:56:34] Luke: Thanks. Can you send me your bank details? OMITTED[2021/01/08, 16:00:05] S Works: It's my friend's details. You can just pay him.

FreeSoul, I thought you left left the conversation last week. You have chosen the legal option and I wish you the best with that. This is now a conversation/debate on the Liabilities of the Seller and the Responsibilities of the Buyer. Unfortunately we are using your transaction as an example, but what comes out of here will determine how I Buy and Sell in future (if I buy and sell in future).

Frame warranties only apply to the original owner. TITAN is the only manufacturer that has a 5 year multi-user frame warranty (with T&C) Bike Market are the only second hand dealer that warranty frames ( In their own capacity) and maybe CycleLab with their 30day money back guarantee. Frame warranty, valid for 3 monthsOur second hand bicycles come with a 3 month frame warranty. This means if a crack is detected that compromises the integrity of the frame, call us and we will replace it with an equivalent. Kudo's to Titan and Bike Market for understating the South African secondhand market.

I don't have any legal/law qualifications, only a few dealings with lawyers in the past, and from that I derive that 1. the legal process is slow 2. lawyers only talk to other lawyers 3. the courts will only deal with facts that can be proven, not hearsay I will supply basis for my (sic) logic, by the end of the weekend. But for starters, if this goes to court, the buyer can't even prove he bought the bike from the seller - he doesn't have a TAX Invoice. - he paid the money onto someone else's bank account. Edit1 : Private sales are not covered by CPA https://www.polity.org.za/article/second-hand-purchases-are-consumers-protected-by-the-cpa-or-not-2018-12-05 "A consumer who purchases second-hand or used goods will also enjoy protection from the Act except when: The sale of second-hand goods by the supplier to the consumer does not fall within the supplier’s ordinary course of business; and/orThe consumer purchases the goods through an auction; orMore than six months have passed since the purchase." Edit 2: Voetstoods clause in private sales is valid https://nuus.fodb.co.za/?p=1093 Consumers considering to buy a second-hand motor vehicle or some other high-value second-hand item would thus be wise to rather buy such an item from a dealership as opposed to a private person who is entering into a once-off sale, since voetstoots clauses between private persons entering into a sale agreement will still be valid (except if such private person wilfully concealed the defects). https://www.bregmans.co.za/voetstoots-and-the-private-seller-what-are-your-rights/ The CPA would protect a buyer who buys a car from a dealer. However, a private sale of property is not a transaction which falls within the ambit of the CPA, as you were not acting within the ordinary course of your business, and therefore the common law position applies.

1) as I have said before I don't know the seller, I will add that I also don't know the original owner or buyer. 2) sometimes I do play Devils Advocate a bit to often. I am genuinely concerned that buyers enter into sales without knowing their responsibilities. I have done this in the past and been burnt by the outcome. I am even more genuinely concerned to find that I (as a seller) may have been exposing myself to POST sale liabilities that I was unaware of. You don't have to agree with me, but please bring to the discussion How, Where, or What you are basing you logic on.

I am emotionally invested in this... Much more that I would like to be. But if there are 'unwritten rules' here on BikeHub that extend the liability of the seller to beyond the point of hand over of goods, then I would like need to know about them.

Hi Wayne This type of bike would be great as a beginner. only problem is it a M not a L https://bikehub.co.za/classifieds/item/hardtail-mountain-bikes/455701/giant-yukon-26er

“When **** happens” – That’s what insurance if for ( as I have already mentioned) “take responsibility” - he did for the FD and Crank “make good” – He tried “ immediately” – Lower your expectation … things take time. Currently there is more information that supports that the “Impact” on the RD happened after the buyer took possession of the bike, as the RD was working then the buyer took it for a test ride on 13th JAN. Is it expected that the seller keep the bike insured for 1,3,6 months so the Buyer is protected for ‘when **** happens’ while the bike is being ‘tested for defects’? Shimano parts only have a 2 year warranty on them, why should a second hand private seller warranty them any longer?

Sorry to the people I have upset in this thread. That wasn't my intention. My intention was to hightlight the risks involved in buying goods you haven't seen and to point out if you go the legal route you need to have your ducks in a row. I still hope that Rikus and Luke can resolve this without lawyers. Happy Friday and have a great weekend

What mistakes did the seller make? Selling on behalf of a friend Advertising a bike in 'Mint Condition' - only a coin and a stamp can me mint condition missing the cracked FD - (Which he offered to rectify) The buyer also missed this on first inspectionmistaking the 172.5mm Crack - (Which he offered to rectify) What did the seller do right? sent detailed pics of the bike when requestedinformed the buyer it was not the original colours and that it had decals placed over it'indicated' that it was a friends bike when supplying the bank details"meticulously protected" the bike while boxing itBoxed and shipped the bike when he said he would.Sent the buyer the waybill numberagreed to replace like for like the FDagreed to replace the 172.5mm crank What more do you want from the seller?

voetstoots adjective LAW sold or purchased without guarantee or warranty; at the buyer's risk. Is Voetstoots legal? Voetstoots Case Law in South Africa It has been ruled by our courts that a seller cannot rely on the voetstoots clause if the seller was aware of a latent defect and deliberately concealed or failed to disclose it with the intention to defraud the purchaser.my understanding of this is that the buyer would have to prove seller was aware deliberately concealed or failed to disclose with the intention to defraud the purchaser.

Your're missing the point. Had the buyer used Bike Hub Pay, he would have had the 48 hours to inspect the bike. The fact that he didn't, means he bought it 'As is'.

The seller had 19 x 5 Star reviews on the day of the sale (30 today) . I don't think it was his intention to misrepresent the FD or Crank. I don't believe he was fobbing off damaged goods either - 3 accounts say it was shifting prior to 16th JAN from the buyer - who had R60K invested from the seller - who has 19 x5 Star Ratingsfrom the previous owner who we know #$% all about If it's sold as X in clean condition and good working order then it must arrive as X in clean condition and good working order. What happens if the goods are damaged by the Courier. If there is no signed contract between the buyer and the seller then transfer of ownership would happen on payment (AFAIK). This is why you pay Conveyancing Attorneys R50,000 to iron out these details before transfer of ownership on a house.

Looking at the details of the Bike Hub Pay, which is a paid for service which protects the buyer and seller when buying items they haven't physically seen The money would have been paid to the seller 48hours after the delivery/receipt of the goods In this case that would have been on the Friday 15th JAN. Which ever came first. [2021/01/15, 11:44:24] Luke: Hi. Got the bike! All looks good. Are the original decals under the new ones? or 2020/01/15 at which ever time he received the bike. My point being the buyer does not use a 'paid for service' which offers him the protection against what has happened here, but expects the even more benefits that they offer. (more than 48 hours to inspect the bike) A deal is considered non-refundable in the event that: The buyer has accepted the item via the "Complete Deal" button.More than 48 hours have passed since the item was delivered by the courier company.The item has been used by the buyer. http://help.bikehub.co.za/en/articles/4611559-what-if-the-item-received-isn-t-as-described

I also buy and sell on BikeHub (and have 16 x5star reviews which I am proud of) When people buy second hand they get the reward of a cheaper price, but the risk of no warranty. If you want the reward with no risk I think you're being unreasonable. Handing over cash to unknown organisation/person for something you have not actually seen is a gamble at best - Buyer is lucky to have an actual bike in his possession. I am yet to see a successful CPA case on BikeHub, If there is one please point me to the thread. I found the FreeSoul's OP arrogant (in my opinion) and missing a lot of detail, ie Test ride, etc. and when asked for them he ignored or avoided the questions, which indicated to me he is hiding stuff. Maybe this is why I am coming across as being against FreeSoul. Only today did he confirm that he assemble the cockpit without a torque wench and that he does not have a TAX Invoice.