MTB wheel spokes

[Dustbin Dog]

I have been trying to purchase 15 gauge (Ø1,8mm) x262mm long black S/S mountain spokes with no success.

 

Some questions:

Are 15 gauge spokes a new trend on mtb wheels as opposed to 14 gauge?

Do LBS's just replace a broken 15 gauge with a 14 gauge (Ø2mm) spoke?

Is it good practice to mix 14 and 15 gauge spokes on one wheel?

Where can I purchase a spoke threading tool/machine?

[Leonard]

Gat hold of Johan Borman here on the hub. JB as most call him. He just bought a threading machine a couple of months ago. Can do any size and lenght.

[Johan Bornman]

Gat hold of Johan Borman here on the hub. JB as most call him. He just bought a threading machine a couple of months ago. Can do any size and lenght.

 

Yeah, I also heard he can do anything. He once fixed his washing machine using old bicycle parts.

 

 

As for the trend in bicycle spokes - there is none. Most "trends" are based on how ignorant the customer will be.

 

For the benefit or non-Americans.

15g spokes are 1.8mm.

14g spokes are 2.0mm

 

A spoke that's made from a single gauge (thickness) spoke is a poor spoke. These are called straight-gauge spokes.

 

Better spokes are made from the same material, but are thinner in the shank than at the two ends = typically 2.0 - 1.8 - 2.0mm

 

This allows the more flexible centre to flex and reduce the flex and cyclical stresses at the two critical end points. Such spokes are many, many times more durable than straight-gauge spokes. Ironically, they're weaker in tension simply because they're thinner, but durability, not strength is what counts.

 

There is a new trend towards a hybrid double-butted spoke where the nipple thread end is 1.8mm, the shank 1.7mm and the elbow 2.0mm. This is a dangerous trend since it introduces a new nipple size that is non-standard. A 2mm nipplw with screw onto a 1.8mm spoke but won't allow enough tension before it strips. Wheelbuilders generally undertension the spokes so never discover that they've fitted the wrong nipples. The customer discovers that somewhere between pofadder and the podium - at his peril. He will never know what happened and it flummoxes most mechanics as well. The difference in size is not obvious and can only be ascertained by testing.

 

I don't like this trend, however DT is pushing it hard and lots of bikes are nowadays specc'd like that. I hope it disappears, since there is no sound reason for not using standard double-butted.

 

Anotehr spoke option is the so-called Revolution (a DT brand) or Laser (a SAPIM brand). These are 2.0 - 1.5 - 2.0 mm. The extra slender shaft makes these very difficult to build with and should only be specified if you trust your wheelbuilder implicitly. In spite of their apparent frailty, they're even more durable than their thicker cousins.

 

As for spoke threading machines, JB has a little hand model for sale. It is the Hozan spoke thread chaser. Contact him.

[DaLoCo]

I would be impressed if you can fix a bicycle using washing machine parts...

 

Good post though, especially for us who are easily flummoxed

[Mackie]

But why are you selling the Hozan,? You waited yonks for it?

[Eldron]

I would be impressed if you can fix a bicycle using washing machine parts...

 

Good post though, especially for us who are easily flummoxed

 

You learn something new every day - I would never have guessed that JB was Scottish

[Cassie]

Schucks...I did not even know that i'm american!!

[Eldron]

Anotehr spoke option is the so-called Revolution (a DT brand) or Laser (a SAPIM brand). These are 2.0 - 1.5 - 2.0 mm. The extra slender shaft makes these very difficult to build with and should only be specified if you trust your wheelbuilder implicitly. In spite of their apparent frailty, they're even more durable than their thicker cousins.

 

Johan - do you have any long term reviews on these spokes in 29er mtb formation? I'm keen to give them a go but value reliability over weight any day.

 

My DT Competition built wheels have stood up to everything I've thrown at them - over 10,000km of training and racing by an 80kg jerk without a single break. Fantastic!

[Johan Bornman]

But why are you selling the Hozan,? You waited yonks for it?

 

 

You're confusing my Hozan with my Morizumi. Both Japanese, the one a hand threader, the one an uber-threader.

 

The Hozan is a simple little device that takes ages to thread a single spoke and I'd only use it in an emergency. The result is not great.

[Johan Bornman]

You learn something new every day - I would never have guessed that JB was Scottish

 

I wondered if someone would pick that up.

[Johan Bornman]

Johan - do you have any long term reviews on these spokes in 29er mtb formation? I'm keen to give them a go but value reliability over weight any day.

 

My DT Competition built wheels have stood up to everything I've thrown at them - over 10,000km of training and racing by an 80kg jerk without a single break. Fantastic!

 

I've build about a dozen 29er pairs using Revo's and so far no problems. That's not a good sample though.

 

However, the Revo's are well proven in 26er and of course the other 700C category - road wheels. Here they perform superbly and the conditions (for a spoke) between road riding and MTBing are no different.

 

One of the pairs I built was with Crest rims and the customer told me his riding partner behind him could not believe how much his wheels flexed. He was none the wiser, which is usually my point - who cares if you can't feel it.

 

When I do the final touches to a wheel I grab it like a bus steering wheel, go onto my knees and press down on the floor with the axle vertical and resing on a block of wood. I press with most of my body weight, going right round in about 8 presses. Here it is quite evident how flexible a Crest and Revolutions is. In spite of that, they'll last longer simply because of the protective slender shaft as I explained earlier on. Also, thinner spokes thinner in the centre that is) have been cold forged considerably more and therefore are metallurigally superior.

[Eldron]

One of the pairs I built was with Crest rims and the customer told me his riding partner behind him could not believe how much his wheels flexed. He was none the wiser, which is usually my point - who cares if you can't feel it.

 

That was the combo I was considering - the thought makes my sphincter pinch - purely an emotional resonse to the fact that the Revos are 20% narrower in the middle than the Comps and the Crest rims are so light. Science be damn - it's gotta be weak damnit

 

A bit of rim flex on an mtb is probably pleasant given that I ride a HT - plus there are no brake blocks to run on like my road bike...

 

Methinks I'll give it a go (contrary to what I just told a mate of mine!!!).

 

Thanks for the advice JB.

[splat]

This makes for interesting reading.

 

JB, do you put weight limits to your wheels?

i.e. that ZTR Crest 29 with DT Revo's would be suitable for someone up to a certain maximum weight?

Do hubs play a part in wheel strength and durability?

 

I weigh 100kg, what handbuild 29'er wheelset would you reccomend for someone like me?

Hope Hubs

DT Swiss Comp spokes

Brass nipples

ZTR Arch rims (32 hole)

[Johan Bornman]

This makes for interesting reading.

 

JB, do you put weight limits to your wheels?

i.e. that ZTR Crest 29 with DT Revo's would be suitable for someone up to a certain maximum weight?

Do hubs play a part in wheel strength and durability?

 

I weigh 100kg, what handbuild 29'er wheelset would you reccomend for someone like me?

Hope Hubs

DT Swiss Comp spokes

Brass nipples

ZTR Arch rims (32 hole)

 

No, I don't put a weight limit on my wheels. However, I won't sell a 28-spoke wheel to a 115kg guy. I have the benefit of meeting my customers whereas overseas manufacturers of wheels don't. If a heavy guy comes in, I discuss the options and we go ahead with something appropriate. I gaurantee my wheels for life, therefore I cannot afford to sell something inappropriate to someone.

 

For a 100 kg guy I'd recommend a set of wheels with 36 spokes (on a 26er 32 would be OK). However, he could then get Revolutions instead of competitions. The weight would be the same but the wheel would be better supported with each spoke taking less of the strain. If you insisted on 32-spoker, I'd recommend a heavier rim.

 

With wheels, less (weight) is actually less strength. If the rims are 20% heavier than another rim and the construction is similar, they'll actually last 20% longer.

 

Rims die from fatigue cracks around the spokes and the speed at which they crack is a functioin of overall weight, the rim's weight, the number of spokes and mileage. It's almost a straight algebraic formula and you can play round with it. However, you cannot get light and durable. You know the old story - strong, light, cheap, choose one.

 

People often ask me about nipples too, so lets clear that out of the way.

 

Aluminium nipples weigh a lot less than brass ones. However, the overal saving is only in the order of 60 grams. Alu nipples have many drawbacks. Firstly, they have a very limited fatigue life. Secondly, the corrode internally and freeze onto the spoke. Subsequent truing is usually impossible and often for a simple true, you have to cut the spoke and start again.

 

Thirdly, they gall very easily. Galling is friction welding. When the spokes are brought up to tension, they friction weld and you cannot turn them anymore. This means, most alu nipple wheels are undertensioned - almost certainly if it is a reduced-spoke wheel that requires high tension.

 

Brass on the other hand is a nice low-friction material that doesn't gall or corrode or break from fatigue.

 

I see you wisely specc'd brass nipples.

 

Your choice of hubs cannot be faulted. They are the best MTB hubs on the market, in my view.

[Mackie]

You're confusing my Hozan with my Morizumi. Both Japanese, the one a hand threader, the one an uber-threader.

 

The Hozan is a simple little device that takes ages to thread a single spoke and I'd only use it in an emergency. The result is not great.

They sound like actors from Kill Bill.