Cape Town Riders. Submit your TMNP MTB trails. Legal or illegal.

[VT2jp]

Stop making this an ad hominem argument dude. I could just as well ask you what have you done.

 

This is about my absolute disagreement with riders submitting to this, and for clubs to think they represent all of the riders out there. Simple. Now grow up pal and argue like a man. Calling me names doesn't mean a thing.

You are seriously pissing on a few okes batteries now boet! Add something constructive or please f$k%off back to the tar or Sunday afternoon boulle. (no offence roadies, I have a soft spot in my heart for you guys..)

[Guest Omega Man]

It isn't. When asked by the Head Ranger for the Northern section of the park, how they could stop cycling on the non-cycling trails, my answer was simple. You can't. So instead of trying to stop it, why not try and manage it? Managing takes less resources than prosecuting as the riders would take over a certain responsibility as well. If we break the rules, we stand to lose a privilege as well.

 

These are some of the suggestions I put forward:

1.Shared trails with runners and hikers on trial basis. Mark the trail heads, informing the public and see how it goes. Keep a log of complaints and if we coexist, extend the trial period. I proposed the Kramat to View Point trail as it sees heavy use by runners and cyclists already.

2. Shared trails with one-way access for cyclists

3. Open Trail days. Open certain areas of the park once a month for cyclists.

4. Night Rides. There are established night rides in some areas where are not supposed to ride. Make night riding legal in certain areas as there is no conflict with other users at night.The question of disturbing animals may come up,but there are areas like the Green Belt which could be used at night.

5. Instead of us demanding new single track being built off the bat, why not look at the trails already there and see how suitable they are for cycling? Come up with a suitability index and then open up a trail , again on a trial basis. I am referring to the trails outside of the Tokai precinct.

 

I'm sure there are plenty more ideas out there. Those suggestions are also useful and would be appreciated.

It's really gratifying that there are people like you and Deon who give of their time to help the cause of Mountain biking. Please don't stop your efforts. They are appreciated. Change is always painful and even though nishiki thinks you don't represent him you do.

 

By creating a community of mountain bikers it gives us the power to deal with sanparks and will ultimately open up more riding to us all. So please. Stick with it.

[kandui]

As I said earlier on the Thread, perhaps I didn't get my intention across clearly. I, the Forum , don't want your GPS location or Google map of your track, although it would make for a nice map to see all the lines linked up. The motivation is more about seeing which areas, outside of Tokai and Table Mountain CBD side, have a lot of activity. Can these areas be opened up for legal riding? If not, why not? This is what we want to talk to San Parks about.

EXAMPLE:The EMP of 2002 ,signed off by San Parks and still valid, talks about establishing a trail from Signal Hill to Cape Point. It's one of the projects we want to tackle and it would be naive of any of us to expect that track would run only on the mountain from the outset. There will be sections which run on the mountain, some which run in the road reserve and some on private land. Once established, one begins dealing with one section at a time , finding a better solution. The primary goal is to get the trail established and then go back to improve it.

If a currently illegal trail can help with this, then why not?

Edited September 5, 2012 by kandui

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Gee, Nishiki... Angry much?

 

Rob is one of the people that represent the riders using the mountain's slopes, through Table Mountain Bikers. There is already a very large user base which his club, and a number of others (PPA / AMARider / Tokai MTB) represent. Together, more than 20,000 individuals.

 

Sanparks have officially started to recognise that MTB is a burgeoning sport, and represents a huge income stream to them, as well as a potential future tourism opportunity, the likes of which has never before been seen in SA.

 

What the forum is doing is presenting a united front in order to liaise with SANParks. This means that SANParks are now happy to deal with mtbers, and negotiate accordingly. Before this, there was a too many chiefs scenario which forced SANParks to refuse to deal with anyone.

 

Why are the trail locations needed? In order to fit in the EMP that is being done over the next 6 to 12 months. This is a critical junction in the future of MTB as it will finally mean that all of the trails are included, ratified and for lack of a better description, INSURED. Right now, if somebody rides an illegal trail, and breaks their neck, for example, SANParks are liable. But - they could legitimately come after the builder of the trail in order to regain any financial loss that they suffered as a result of the litigation.

 

This is another reason that the trails need to be listed on the EMP.

 

As for being so aggressive and downright counterproductive, why? Are you so scared that the forum is going to ruin it for everyone, or are you just scared to admit that someone else has come to the party and may in fact have your best interests at heart?

[DJR]

Hi Candui

 

Where I ride (4 - 5 times a week):

1. I ride Tokai 80% of the time, all legal trails

2. I ride between Rhodes Mem and Signal hill the other 20%, now only legal trails

 

The illigal riding I've done over the years include:

1. Between Rhodes Mem and Newlands Forest (until an old lady tried to smack me with her walking stick)

2. From Mosterts Mill up to Rhodes Mem (until I discovered it to be illegal last year). This I feel should be opened as it is a logical access route onto the mountain and it keeps riders off the more dangerous road.

3. The footpath from the Blockhouse back towards the lower cable station (until I found out that riding above the Table Mountain Road is illegal)

4. Cecilia Forest to Constantia neck (I read in the 2002 SANParks documents that this is allowed, but later learnt that it was only proposed) This area could alleviate the pressure on Tokai and I think hikers and riders could co-exist there without conflict.

 

What I would love to have:

1. A continious route from Signal Hill along the front of Table Mountain, past Rhodes Mem, past Kirstenbosch, through Cecilia Forest, through Hout Bay and back along the 12 Apostles to Signal hill.

2 A similar monster circle route of the peninsula going all the way to cape Point and back.

 

PS Sorry people are so negative about the Forum. I think we should all realize that riding in a National Park, a World heritage site and one of the Natural Wonders of the world, complicates matters incredibly. Working together as mountainbikers and dealing in a constructive way with SANParks will get us a lot further if we want to improve our trails and access to the mountain. Being obstructive, underhanded and illegal, can only end in disaster for our long term riding there. Now is the time to support this initiative. If you have reservations, educate yourself by checking the facts, speak to the people involved, evaluate what you want and make your contribution, or alternatively don't.

Edited September 5, 2012 by DJR

[nishiki]

Gee, Nishiki... Angry much?

 

Rob is one of the people that represent the riders using the mountain's slopes, through Table Mountain Bikers. There is already a very large user base which his club, and a number of others (PPA / AMARider / Tokai MTB) represent. Together, more than 20,000 individuals.

 

Sanparks have officially started to recognise that MTB is a burgeoning sport, and represents a huge income stream to them, as well as a potential future tourism opportunity, the likes of which has never before been seen in SA.

 

What the forum is doing is presenting a united front in order to liaise with SANParks. This means that SANParks are now happy to deal with mtbers, and negotiate accordingly. Before this, there was a too many chiefs scenario which forced SANParks to refuse to deal with anyone.

 

Why are the trail locations needed? In order to fit in the EMP that is being done over the next 6 to 12 months. This is a critical junction in the future of MTB as it will finally mean that all of the trails are included, ratified and for lack of a better description, INSURED. Right now, if somebody rides an illegal trail, and breaks their neck, for example, SANParks are liable. But - they could legitimately come after the builder of the trail in order to regain any financial loss that they suffered as a result of the litigation.

 

This is another reason that the trails need to be listed on the EMP.

 

As for being so aggressive and downright counterproductive, why? Are you so scared that the forum is going to ruin it for everyone, or are you just scared to admit that someone else has come to the party and may in fact have your best interests at heart?

I've stated my points in above posts. Like it or don't.

[udxcob]

This nishiki dude gets everyones backs up on all the threads he posts in

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

I've stated my points in above posts. Like it or don't.

 

Fact is I don't. Rob, Deon, Meurant and a host of other respected and experienced individuals set up this forum TMMTBF in order to cater for our needs and wishes (as MTBers) and to negotiate with SANParks on all issues relating to MTB. That includes negotiating for more, better trails, as well as formalizing the maintenance and revitalization of existing trails.

 

That means they are doing it for YOU, even if you don't want to admit it.

 

You ride Tokai, right? Well, the recent work on Tokai was made possible by the guys on the forum. The recent and ongoing work that Rob is doing on Table Mountain itself is being lent more influence as a result of the Forum coming into existence. What does that mean? Better negotiating powers, better trails, better organisation, better communication.

 

Better all round, basically.

[Kranswurm]

I've stated my points in above posts. Like it or don't.

 

There is no point in rubbing everyone up the wrong way.Instead of staying part of the problem,become part of the solution

At some point in time if not already the authorities will recognize a group/association or what ever as being representative of mtbers then you will find yourself on the outside.Won't do much good bleating then that they do not represent you.

[Tubeless]

Unbefukinleavable some of you.

 

"Fellow riders" my $#&^

[kandui]

How much easier would it be if Table Mountain was owned privately?! We are not in the fortunate position of Tygerberg MTB who can call up a farmer, put forward a proposal and get an answer in what "normal" humans see as reasonable time. San Parks function differently. They can't be flexible, they can't make a quick decision. When I started my crusade to get the jeep tracks on Table Mountain marked, my mind told me it was the most logical thing to do and San Parks would agree immediately. Almost 12 months later there is still no signage on the ground, but I am THIS close to getting the signage design approved. The trail map is approved, I just need to know the signage design is approved to add it to the map. Another one or two map tweaks and I can go to print.

Whatever issue you tackle with San Parks takes time. They are dealing with individuals coming to them with moans and ideas all the time. Unfortunately for us, they are a Parastatal which has as its primary task the preservation of the mountain. In other words, all of us who seek an intervention on the mountain pose a threat . If I can put it that crudely.

There are more and more User Groups wanting something from San Parks: Horse Riders, Dog Walkers,Hikers, Paragliders, Mountain Bikers, Fishermen, Trail Runners, the list goes on. We are one of many groups who are demanding stuff.

I am trying to see it from a San Parks perspective as well, when I go and tackle them on a mountain biking issue. The mountain is under siege by all of us. If we as mountain bikers can come up with the right ideas and in the right tone and form a united front, we have a pretty good chance of getting to the front of the user group queue.

Edited September 5, 2012 by kandui

[kandui]

To put this issue about secret trails to bed. Don't tell me, it's not critical to the success of the Forum. We know the areas where illegal riding takes place and will work on that basis.

Like the secret surf spots. Closely guarded, but they end up in the Surf Mags eventually.

[(Deon)]

Sorry you feel that way. Perhaps I should have phrased my into differently. We, the MTB Forum would like to get an idea of the trails being ridden on the mountain so that we can formulate a strategy based on where the highest concentration of cycling takes place. We are not pencil pushers who don't ride ourselves. We are just as sick and tired of the San Parks rhetoric and that's why we have decided to do something about it.

Unfortunately is is not as simple as having a meeting with a ranger and agreeing on a trail that will now be open to cycling, this is a Parastatal we are dealing with, who can't make any quick decisions.

There is a lot more to this process than you think, but we have decided that it's time to get San Parks to commit and start offering tangible results.

It'll take time and I can't make any promises about what the end result will be.

Single tracks all over the mountain, i doubt it. Access to more trails , very possible. When? No idea at this stage, but if you feel you don't need to make a contribution, fine, that's your call. We will work on your behalf and we won't mind if you enjoy the benefits at the end of the process. What the Forum is trying to achieve is an ongoing dialogue with San Parks on behalf of mountain bikers. We will stay in their faces and get the job done.

 

Rob, don't waste your time rationalising your motive. This guy has a history of slating efforts and is currently on the top and bottom of my ignore list which consists of 1.

 

Thanks for your comments nishiki, now best you get back to the bridge from whence you came. If you cannot see the value of what is happening, then best you stick to riding on the road.

 

Alternatively, and a chance of saving face, is to supply us with your plan of action..

[kandui]

While dealing with your friend, I tried to keep the replies general to provide some info to others.

[(Deon)]

It will be even worse. They will start doing an "Environmental Impact Plan", based on these areas. Then they will let this drag out for a year/s, all the while stringing this "Forum" of riders along, with an end result similar to Tokai, but worse, because there's no money to steal from taxpaying riders and populace who this mountain belongs to, so it will be easier to apply a formal ban.

 

Seriously. What's the point of all of this 'process'? To me, it looks like a bunch of guys who love sitting in meetings discussing minutes and who's going to bring biscuits. I went to your site Rob. Doesn't inspire much. The minutes of your last meeting are not up either. I suppose another meeting to discuss the spelling/wording is in order? Rob, you still havn't answered my question: what do you gain from this exercise?

 

Could I ask you, as a rider.. did you attend the Forum meeting held on the 22nd?

[(Deon)]

While dealing with your friend, I tried to keep the replies general to provide some info to others.

 

.. and why I bit my tongue for so long.