CSA / PPA. The Heat is on

[DJR]

Carbon29er, your post 154 above is truly enlightening. Thanks.

[ricochet_rabbit]

CSA are simply the goverments lap dog, ensuring they have their fingers in every essence of sport. It's just another type of tax from the fun riders license fees and the money raked in from being collected by CSA for the so called sanctioned cycling events. Which is a portion of our entry fees. the more they collect the less they need to ask goverment for. thats why we are so poorly represented in international pro events. Most pro riders have to pay themselves or get pvt companies to sponser them to go race overseas. It will never end unless the fun riders stand up and do something.

 

Just a thought

 

If every non-pro rider refused to take out CSA license and simply boycotted every CSA sanctioned cycling event I wonder what their repsonse would be or how long it would take for them to go bust because of no income.

 

Yes we would lose out on a lot of races for however long it took, but maybe it would work.

 

Imagine if only the elites arrived to do the 94.7 or the ARGUS.

 

Unsanctioned races would mean the pros or elites would be banned from participating. But the masses of fun riders would be there and so would the money and the sponsers. I personally don't ride these events because the pros are riding them, so let them race in CSA organised and sanctioned events. But i suppose trying to organize a road event would mean having the local authorities (which is goverment) agree to it and they could make if difficult.

 

On the other hand MTB events are largely hosted on private land so why do they need to be sanctioned by CSA. A non-sanctioned MTB event would still attract us fun riders, with the elite bunch missing. So the entry fees would be there and the sponsers, because we are the people they are trying sell to, certainly not the pro's.

 

Last week at the USN cup the race com. was very vocal about CSA rules and swore he would DQ any rider caught with a video camera on his body or helmet. I thought WTF!!!! or HTF!!!! cares if i wanna film my race i'll film it, if you wanna DQ me then go ahead. I would still get my stupid medal and i don't need an official time because i have a perfectly good Garmin which will give me my time.

 

Just a thought - use it; don't use it; use it.......

 

 

And to get road closure and permission from metro police etc you will need to have a sanctioned race. I would imagine that it's quite easy for CSA to F^ck PPA over should they really want to.

[ricochet_rabbit]

bowel cancer or lung cancer indeed.

 

So let's be ridiculous, by actually looking at what the endgame is here. UCI and then by extension CSA want control over everything that is a race on bicycles? Would that include the tiny tots 1km pre argus race at the waterfront, or do you draw the line somewhere higher?

 

In running any event 10km and over needs to be sanctioned. So all "fun runs" are essentially shorter than 10km. Once you go above that distance you need to be selling temp licenses to all who do not have a licence. Maybe cycling could be similar, say 25km and under then it can be deemed a "fun ride" ?

[slabs]

Aha, now we are getting to the gist of it all - it is ultimately all about the money ! Whilst there might be a few unpaid volunteers, who really earn nothing and are involved for the love of the sport, there are MANY who live quite handsomely and/or supplement their lifestyles very nicely, thank you. It will never reflect in the financial statements as salary, but there are many creative ways of doing this - dealing irresponsibly or recklessly with LOTTO funds and equipment, creative reimbursement claims for travelling local or abroad, visiting pals in Australia/UK that just happen to coincide with some or other World Cycling Event or training camp - these things have been going on for years and there might in fact still be a few involved within CSA, who are being investigated. If memory serves correctly investigations came about as result of concerns expressed by members of WPCA ............so handing over large sums of money to CSA without being able to see EXACTLY what they are doing with it, will never fill PPA with much joy.

 

As pointed out in a few previous posts, CSA, as far as I am aware DO NOT in any direct or meaningful way contribute to selected cyclists overseas travelling costs. So they make the selection of who can represent SA, but it is then up to the cyclist ( or parents) to make a "commitment" . The recent announcement of juniors ( 17 & 18 year olds i.e. the future of SA cycling) to represent SA at the World Track Champs, being a good example - each training camp came at a cost and Overseas costs carried by cyclists in the region of R 35 000 - R 50 000.

So, saying that CSA looks after racing activities, is a bit like saying McDonalds is looking after your health !

 

Also CSA gave a letter to these cyclists they could use to ask potential companies for sponsorship to go overseas. BUT guess what? The letter also states that the money must be paid to CSA....

Edited June 13, 2013 by slabs

[DJR]

And to get road closure and permission from metro police etc you will need to have a sanctioned race. I would imagine that it's quite easy for CSA to F^ck PPA over should they really want to.

 

But that would be cutting its own nose to spite its face.......they're surely smarter than that, and they love cycling and cyclists and would put that first and foremost, above own interests, wouldn't they? (Giving themselves a puncture is perhaps a better analogy).

[madmarc]

And to get road closure and permission from metro police etc you will need to have a sanctioned race. I would imagine that it's quite easy for CSA to F^ck PPA over should they really want to.

 

True

 

But I think with the Argus this would not happen as Auntie Helen would make sure about road closure. But there would not be a pro/elite bunch

[ccc2]

this whole ppa/csa debacle goes a long way back. in the old wpppa / sacf days every wpppa event had "sacf sanctioned event, held under sacf rules" even though it was a fun ride with no prize money. every event countrywide had to be sanctioned and held under sacf rules. they also had to pay over R2 a rider (now i'm going back into the 90's) everyone paid other than the wpppa. they refused outright. i can't say why it was never enforced because i was too busy cycling to care about the politics. it was only when csa was formed (wpppa dropped the wp so that they looked like a national body and not a regional one) between ppa and sacf that the ppa started paying levies when licensed riders raced in their events.

now sascoc have come along and forced csa to drop ppa they are now not paying levies again and rely on a clause in the country's constitution that allows any individual or association to conduct its business free of any interference blah blah blah hence the stand off between the 2 associations. we wait with bated breath.

Edited June 13, 2013 by ccc2

[gogo@]

In running any event 10km and over needs to be sanctioned. So all "fun runs" are essentially shorter than 10km. Once you go above that distance you need to be selling temp licenses to all who do not have a licence. Maybe cycling could be similar, say 25km and under then it can be deemed a "fun ride" ?

Same for cycling, actually. The stipulation - CSA's stipulation, nobody else's, so far as I can see - is any event over 20km which is timed, must be sanctioned... how did they arrive at that?

[Dicky DQ]

F. If for argument sake WPCA organized spring and summer league racing on the same day as PPA event - would PPA give the racing body (WPCA) their blessing? I cannot answer this but I expect not as PPA would possibly run the risk of the road fun ride no longer be financially viable for the fun ride organizer due to the reduced entry. So if this is the case then Why does PPA not just also do racing properly "a necessary evil" they certainly have the money to do it properly - maybe then CSA / gov would be siding a little more with PPA! As high lighted in this post "Pro cycling is going, it's just not going well."

 

Here is the Crux, how many took part in the winter league What sponsorship would be arranged to cater for the Funride volumes to cater for costs of traffic etc. remember winter league is normally on a short circuit in the sticks where cost of road closures and traffic are way less.

 

Truth be told, if you tried to organize the spring and summer league racing, I do not believe you will get the turnout you think for the following reasons:

1. Funriders are afraid of "racing" as it is hard.

2. Funriders want to compete, but against their peers, yes it is nice to compare against the elites, but it is not really that important. It is more important to say I beat Joe soap.

3. You do not have the critical mass to cover the event costs, unless you have the races out in the sticks on a short course. Funriders want to say I did that route from here to there and there and there and and... not I rode around a 10km lap and got lapped 5 times and did not know who was where etc.

4. The elite riders bitch no end when the long route meets up with the short route and they don't get out of the way and, and, and. Think of this happening continually from about 20km for the next 50 to 100km?

just a few thoughts.........

 

So I believe if you do go the "pro" route it will stay with the same volume of attendees as you had this winter league so PPA will not feel it.

 

My 2c's

[ccc2]

Here is the Crux, how many took part in the winter league What sponsorship would be arranged to cater for the Funride volumes to cater for costs of traffic etc. remember winter league is normally on a short circuit in the sticks where cost of road closures and traffic are way less.

 

Truth be told, if you tried to organize the spring and summer league racing, I do not believe you will get the turnout you think for the following reasons:

1. Funriders are afraid of "racing" as it is hard.

2. Funriders want to compete, but against their peers, yes it is nice to compare against the elites, but it is not really that important. It is more important to say I beat Joe soap.

3. You do not have the critical mass to cover the event costs, unless you have the races out in the sticks on a short course. Funriders want to say I did that route from here to there and there and there and and... not I rode around a 10km lap and got lapped 5 times and did not know who was where etc.

4. The elite riders bitch no end when the long route meets up with the short route and they don't get out of the way and, and, and. Think of this happening continually from about 20km for the next 50 to 100km?

just a few thoughts.........

 

So I believe if you do go the "pro" route it will stay with the same volume of attendees as you had this winter league so PPA will not feel it.

 

My 2c's

 

at its height of popularity , league racing had about 450 competitors including all age categories. even if you just aim for elite / sub vet / competitve club racer and attract double what winter league is now attracting ie 200 racers at R1 000 a league entry. thats R200 000 less the ppa would get. 200 participants might be (i repeat might be) the difference between the ppa event making a profit or a loss.

i organise winter league, with a 100 riders at R80, an event makes a profit without cutting corners.

if i get 200 riders and i charge ppa rates and i ask for entry fees to paid upfront i can expand the routes from circuits to traditional road race routes. if sponsors come in i might take early pension and do it full time

Edited June 13, 2013 by ccc2

[Stretch]

Are you not confusing CSA with the event organisers of the race ? The event organiser is "forced" to use and pay CSA officials to fulfill certain functions and every rider pays for this via entry fees ............... if you see a CSA race commissaire, surely he is not at the race because of any CSA involvement, but rather because he is supplying his services to the race organiser at a fee? If PPA ( or for that matter, any other cycling body) was allowed to train and accredit officials, they would be able to supply the same services to race organisers.

 

No. Event organisers dont pay CSA commisiers to be there, they pay a fee per cyclist to CSA for the event to be sanctioned, be on the calendar etc etc. As a sanctioned event CSA then makes sure that commisiers are on site to ensure that everything goes according to international rules and regulations as adopted by uci. I am sure there are some of these commisiers that are on a power trip, but the ones down here in KZN are all very pleasant

[gogo@]

No. Event organisers dont pay CSA commisiers to be there, they pay a fee per cyclist to CSA for the event to be sanctioned, be on the calendar etc etc. As a sanctioned event CSA then makes sure that commisiers are on site to ensure that everything goes according to international rules and regulations as adopted by uci. ...

Are you sure about this? That there is no other cost to event organizers, besides the R35 day license for non-licensed riders, to have CSA there?

[Dicky DQ]

at its height of popularity , league racing had about 450 competitors including all age categories. even if you just aim for elite / sub vet / competitve club racer and attract double what winter league is now attracting ie 200 racers at R1 000 a league entry. thats R200 000 less the ppa would get. 200 participants might be (i repeat might be) the difference between the ppa event making a profit or a loss.

i organise winter league, with a 100 riders at R80, an event makes a profit without cutting corners.

if i get 200 riders and i charge ppa rates and i ask for entry fees to paid upfront i can expand the routes from circuits to traditional road race routes. if sponsors come in i might take early pension and do it full time

 

If it was that lucrative why does the winter league still struggle? Not knocking it, it serves a purpose for the committed cyclists.

 

The question I ask is why does it not continue into the spring summer? Is it because it is just easy to sit back and enjoy the fruits of someone else's labors? or is it not really that profitable?

[madmarc]

No. Event organisers dont pay CSA commisiers to be there, they pay a fee per cyclist to CSA for the event to be sanctioned, be on the calendar etc etc. As a sanctioned event CSA then makes sure that commisiers are on site to ensure that everything goes according to international rules and regulations as adopted by uci. I am sure there are some of these commisiers that are on a power trip, but the ones down here in KZN are all very pleasant

 

So does anyone know what the fee is per rider?

[big.mamma]

carbon29er, on 13 June 2013 - 02:50 , said:

 

You're all over the place with the facts on this.

 

You 1st state the PPA increased their fees and didn't pay it over to CSA, then The Argus charged the fee. Which is it? i pay my Argus entry and PPA subs together. What fee must be paid to CSA? R 75 per cyclists on your books for Recreation/CYCLOSPORT license. Why collect this as the cyclist have to pay directly to CSA and apply direct with CSA. What is the interest implication of collecting R 75 @cyclist for 20 000 cyclists?

 

Factually this is the situation:

 

Since the 2004 Constitution was adopted , tppa was trying to receive preferential treatment and wanted to dictate to CSA he PPA has paid the following amounts to CSA, for which it has received little or no benefit:

1. Initially, when CSA did not have any funds, PPA undertook and paid for the salary of CSA’s employees for a period of two years. The amount paid to CSA in this regard totalled R551 000; Great , and i commend them on that. Was there any benefits for PPA.

2. Calendar fees of R43 115; like every other promotor of cycles events but why didn't they pay before 2004? For how many races?

3. Membership levies of R2 128 087; see above For how many races at R 6 @ rider. How many races by PPA a year over how many years?

4. PPA has collected and paid to CSA day license fees of R66 416.see above @ R35 it is only 1900 odd day licenses over what period and how many races per year. See the newspaper says the bulk of the 35 000 Argus riders have to pay day licenses. How many races per year times how many riders? Sounds like a drop in the BUCKET.

 

If the CSA constitution is upheld then:

(a) “none of [PPA's] events will be able to take place as they will not have Provincial or National approval” (paragraph 3.12 e); and

( B) “effectively this means that the Cape Argus Cycle Tour will not take place without the approval and sanction of Western Cape and Cycling SA.” (paragraph 3.5) if they are within the csa structures it will be approved!!! Correctly pay your dues like anybody else. Present the race correctly and address issues like the ladies bunch every year. Do not support dopers. This year PPA took away lances 10th position but yet the winner served time for doping and the guy interviewing him on National Tv the same. How now? Dopers on pedestals? Eish.

 

You have a beef with PPA, don't use it to hide the facts that PPA does a huge amount for all types of cyclists, CSA brief is to look after racers and elite cyclists and win medals. take the time to read all of my replies Wrong CSA's brief is to look after all cycling in this country even the little race around the church. PPA is a business and it is about the money. Of course they cry about their charity work. Ok so they are using cycling as a vehicle to generate funds for charity. But yet they do not want to pay all their dues. How much does the staff and owners and all the partners and the entry company and the timing company get. Is this correct.

 

The court action is simply to protect PPA position to continue to exercise its autonomy (no autonomy they are a business asking CSA to present RACES AGAINST A SET SeT OF RULES AND FEES. PPA has no mandate from government regarding cycling. CSA is the mandated body. Try and host a rugby tournament at Newlands without consulting or paying WP an RugbySA their dues) over funrides, including timed fun rides, without regard to Western Cape Cycling and CSA. In particular PPA intends to exercise the right granted in clause 11.6.1 “in perpetuity” to “continue to carry on [PPA's] business; set and operate [PPA's] domestic fun ride calendars and generally operate and control all [PPA's] recreation tours; fun rides and league races (after consultation with the Road Commission)Can hardly be legal as the Road Commission is not empowered to make this deal. Why is therer a board of CSA?. but the Road Commission is a CSA structure. you can't have it both ways

 

Nothing more. Nothing less. Wrong CSA with its affiliates is mandated to control and run cycling in South Africa as mandated by Government. If the Argus is stopped who stands to loose the most? CSA? I do not think so.

 

PPA stays a business with a monopoly they are protecting. Look at all the things they have? Qualifying races for the Argus etc, etc,

 

What is PPA's turnover per year compared to CSA.

[ccc2]

If it was that lucrative why does the winter league still struggle? Not knocking it, it serves a purpose for the committed cyclists. it's not lucrative and it serves its purpose, profits are prize money for the cyclist

 

The question I ask is why does it not continue into the spring summer? Is it because it is just easy to sit back and enjoy the fruits of someone else's labors? or is it not really that profitable? see above. i'll reverse the question. why doesn't spring,summer continue into autumn & winter? they have the resources and time to do a much better job than i do. hell no, they'll take the profits and give it to a charity and give cyclists gift vouchers.