CSA / PPA. The Heat is on

[ccc2]

I am have been involved in several non-cycling clubs over the years. The 1 thing they all have had in common over the last few decades, is DECLINING membership numbers. This is an international thing happening all over the world. It is simply a sign of a changing world and nothing will change it in the short term. People are no longer feeling the need to belong to a club with others of similar interest as they did 20 or 30 years ago. They function more as individuals and get together when they feel like joining up (riding Moonlight Mass, or the Argus). To hope for a growing cycling club structure / culture, is a pipe dream in the modern world. Things like The Hub has taken the place and fulfils the need of a physical club.

 

My 2c.

 

Where this leaves PPA and CSA is another question.

I am have been involved in several non-cycling clubs over the years. The 1 thing they all have had in common over the last few decades, is DECLINING membership numbers. This is an international thing happening all over the world. It is simply a sign of a changing world and nothing will change it in the short term. People are no longer feeling the need to belong to a club with others of similar interest as they did 20 or 30 years ago. They function more as individuals and get together when they feel like joining up (riding Moonlight Mass, or the Argus). To hope for a growing cycling club structure / culture, is a pipe dream in the modern world. Things like The Hub has taken the place and fulfils the need of a physical club.

 

My 2c.

 

Where this leaves PPA and CSA is another question.

I am have been involved in several non-cycling clubs over the years. The 1 thing they all have had in common over the last few decades, is DECLINING membership numbers. This is an international thing happening all over the world. It is simply a sign of a changing world and nothing will change it in the short term. People are no longer feeling the need to belong to a club with others of similar interest as they did 20 or 30 years ago. They function more as individuals and get together when they feel like joining up (riding Moonlight Mass, or the Argus). To hope for a growing cycling club structure / culture, is a pipe dream in the modern world. Things like The Hub has taken the place and fulfils the need of a physical club.

 

My 2c.

 

Where this leaves PPA and CSA is another question.

i beg to differ - here in the WP there are 15 clubs affiliated to the wpca - some big ie in excess of 200 members (o/riders/club 100/cyclelab/city/wannabees) some are small. let ppa compete with the clubs for our members membership. as it is, half of the members of the club who i belong to have not renewed their ppa membership becos they now only ride the Argus.

btw , they aren't csa members either.

[Icycling]

Lets for 1 moment consider what the members of PPA have already voted on a few years back to be in a unified body or not to be in a unified body. The member decided it was better for the sport to be in a unified body.

 

Believe it, it still is and if the current committee cannot accept that you have to ask why and who on the committee is possibly finically benefitting for it directly so or indirectly so! What agendas do the individuals on the committee have? It is a case of making it work what ever government dictates to CSA! Imagine when the rules changed on smoking and business did not make it work - their would be no restaurant, night club or bars still open! Sometime the rules change by government and you have to deal with them!

 

Cycling is far better speaking / campaigning with 1 voice when it get / trying to achieve objectives with the greater part of government from road safety, better infrastructure for cyclist nationally, even on the elite side of the sport see the cyclist being successful on the world stage! PPA realized this what about 14 years back and thus went into negotiation with then the SACF to form a new body called CSA. They realized the new body CSA with many more members PPA themselves in current number bring 18 000 members to the party government could not just be ignored - but with this new stance by PPA, cycling will no doubt be in a worse place than it currently is as highlighted by several people in this thread.

[ccc2]

i beg to differ - here in the WP there are 15 clubs affiliated to the wpca - some big ie in excess of 200 members (o/riders/club 100/cyclelab/city/wannabees) some are small. let ppa compete with the clubs for our members membership. as it is, half of the members of the club who i belong to have not renewed their ppa membership becos they now only ride the Argus.

btw , they aren't csa members either.

i also need to add , that we have to thank the ppa for the growth in club membership.it is because of the mass participation in the argus which has introduced a lot of people to the sport of cycling.

clubs that only relied on their "racing' members in the past are learning very quickly to cater for the more social / recreational rider. from there you build your base membership, the racing side flows with it especially if you target the local schools for the youth. racing is a natural progression. even the ppa know this as they have evolved from pure fun ride to league racing.

[ricochet_rabbit]

We don't know all the ins and outs of what really happening (Polictics, Power Struggles, Money) but from the outside, What is the fuss about ?

 

1)PPA become a club within Western Province Cycling etc

 

2)When PPA club members renew their membership they are charged an additional R75.00 for an annual cyclosport licence, or the full amount if they want a racing licence (Provincial selection etc).

 

3)PPA select a few of their club members to become an accredited commissionaire thereby negating the fee.

 

4)PPA continue to hold their club races, because that is what they are (no seeding or timing if you are not a PPA member = club in my book) and increase the entry fee by R6.00 to cover the affiliation costs.

 

5)Western Province Cycling and the clubs hold a forum to establish a sliding scale with regards to calendar fees.

 

6)All Argus cyclists who do not hold a CSA license (Cyclosport, Racing etc) are charged R35-00 above their normal entry fee. Only riders with racing licences get seeded in VA; VB ; VC ; # '% $ etc. All cyclosport riders are seeded from A down and temp licences are seeded after cyclosport riders.

 

 

PPA members can always garner support and stand to be elected onto the board of the Western Province Cycling by the clubs.

 

Who says PPA still can't do their charity and other work to improve the conditions and facilities for cyclists. It seems to me that possibly PPA should be negotiating with Western Province Cycling and not CSA.

[mazambaan]

I only have a very small dog in this fight (R75) so will just leave a note:

 

MSA and WOMZA squabbled in a broadly similar way about SA motocross (and a few other issues). WOMZA won in court. But SA offroad motorcycling is split and weaker for the fight.

 

If CSA is the "government arm" of cycling it should probably be booted from the IOC. My understanding is that government should not be directly involved in Olympic sport; dictating to CSA about the number of provinces etc.

[ricochet_rabbit]

I only have a very small dog in this fight (R75) so will just leave a note:

 

MSA and WOMZA squabbled in a broadly similar way about SA motocross (and a few other issues). WOMZA won in court. But SA offroad motorcycling is split and weaker for the fight.

 

If CSA is the "government arm" of cycling it should probably be booted from the IOC. My understanding is that government should not be directly involved in Olympic sport; dictating to CSA about the number of provinces etc.

 

 

 

SASCOC is the Olympic body in SA and they have said that Cycling SA is the statuary body for cycling. One cannot expect the IOC to be dealing with multiple bodies from the same country.....what a mess that would be.

[DJR]

I only have a very small dog in this fight (R75) so will just leave a note:

 

MSA and WOMZA squabbled in a broadly similar way about SA motocross (and a few other issues). WOMZA won in court. But SA offroad motorcycling is split and weaker for the fight.

 

If CSA is the "government arm" of cycling it should probably be booted from the IOC. My understanding is that government should not be directly involved in Olympic sport; dictating to CSA about the number of provinces etc.

 

But is it's a Jack Russel........

[madmarc]

OK, then I'm corrected on that one, which is what I asked for. But all these votes meant nothing when it came down to changing the constitution in 2012.

 

even with the biggest vote, if all the other 68 votes are against you, then you are in the minority

['Dale]

You cannot blame PPA for kids safety! I blame ANC because the police and traffic law and taxi are useless nowadays!

Can you explain how can PPA improve cycling safety??

My dream is that we have cycling paths from south suburb to Cape Town next to De Waal drive.... Can't TMP support and PPA build cycling paths...

 

How cool would that be...

[gogo@]

even with the biggest vote, if all the other 68 votes are against you, then you are in the minority

You miss my point. The vote is irrelevant. It is apparently government decree to CSA. So no vote matters.

That is what is coming out strongly from all sides of this sorry story so far. You can only have one authority and that authority apparently made room for a relationship with the PPA but, to keep in with SASCOC, went against the agreement. Or are all the PPA people telling porkies?

I heard Steve Hayward being interviewed and it would seem that, amongst other things, PPA's decision to go to court is sparked by CSA threatening to close down all their events aimed at fun riders, despite the grey area into which they fall. Go have a listen here: http://joffers19899.podomatic.com/entry/2013-06-13T10_11_22-07_00

[madmarc]

Bollocks. Quite the opposite - ditch the legally clueless board members and officials and employ only lawyers and the matter would have been sorted long ago.

 

Go and read the PPA founding affidavit - probably drafted by Lance Burger SC for some clarity on the matter. I doubt CSA has a snowballs chance in winning this one...

 

I've had to negotiate some pretty big supply contracts with customers on a national level, and everytime it's the lawyers who have strung things out and made the enviroment not conducive to any of the contracts actually working or surviving. It's all the what if clauses they try install in agreements. I no longer involve them, i simply draw up a set of rules or heads of agreeement and off we go. the first contract we did like this is now 15 years old and still running strong.

 

It is in the lawyers interest to complicate matters, they make more money that way.

[Icycling]

I've had to negotiate some pretty big supply contracts with customers on a national level, and everytime it's the lawyers who have strung things out and made the enviroment not conducive to any of the contracts actually working or surviving. It's all the what if clauses they try install in agreements. I no longer involve them, i simply draw up a set of rules or heads of agreeement and off we go. the first contract we did like this is now 15 years old and still running strong.

 

It is in the lawyers interest to complicate matters, they make more money that way.

 

How many lawyers are on the PPA committee at present? 2 or 3!

[rpedro]

I'm with CSA on this 1 but we need them both

[ccc2]

You miss my point. The vote is irrelevant. It is apparently government decree to CSA. So no vote matters.

That is what is coming out strongly from all sides of this sorry story so far. You can only have one authority and that authority apparently made room for a relationship with the PPA but, to keep in with SASCOC, went against the agreement. Or are all the PPA people telling porkies?

I heard Steve Hayward being interviewed and it would seem that, amongst other things, PPA's decision to go to court is sparked by CSA threatening to close down all their events aimed at fun riders, despite the grey area into which they fall. Go have a listen here: http://joffers19899....T10_11_22-07_00

 

its a pity Joffers old boy knows nothing about the sport. steve had it easy. he shoots himself in the foot by ending off with 'all our profits from cycling events goes to well deserving charities, whats going to happen to them if CSA stop us from operating in this way'

[Brogue]

I'm with CSA on this 1 but we need them both

 

CSA needs PPA considerably more than PPA needs CSA, without a doubt. Without the Cycle Tour and associated seeding events leading up to it around the country, they have no credibility. CSA only have themselves to blame for pushing PPA into a corner.

[Icycling]

Well at least Graeme Joffe can still read between the line and basically with his little knowledge of cycling can still put the blame squarely on SASCOC!

 

But to comment of Steve Hayward:

 

1. When it came to the kids at 94.7 and day licenses he did not say - no an event has to more than what been commented in this tread 30km long for people to need day licenses - so the kids do not need to pay this fee from what I understand from this thread!

 

2. He goes on about been a putting on fun rides and by doing this drawing people into the sport - 100% correct. Then if the cyclist has potential and are talented putting them into the CSA structure and WP (what ever province) or national team with the hope 1 day a olympic team - that is great!

 

But how can PPA knowingly do this when they know CSA don't have the finance to develop these cyclist - yes PPA want to turn a blind eye to this, but surely if you started the ball rolling (getting a person {especially the youth} interested in competitive cycling - all fun ride are competitive by nature of them been timed) you obliged to give it the support all the way through (esp. if you have the financial means which PPA do) unless you know another body is able to follow what you started of to the end?

 

This is where I have a huge problem with PPA is as soon as a cyclist shows ability they actually drop them! How can they do that to their members? I a not surprised the likes of Darren Lill (still lives in Cape Town and races) who by the way did their 1st Argus Cycle tour at the age of 7 are no longer a member of PPA - PPA failed him! Like PPA has failed a lot of other cyclist who started in the PPA fun ride system became relatively good and could have gone further but PPA stance on not wanting to invest in the racing members has got to be questions!

 

That's is why CSA need money and surely they should be looking to PPA for this in one form or another be it a grant or a levy on entries into their fun ride, which use public road, which possible SASCOC / CSA, could prevent PPA getting access too! Its not bulling is actually is just saying you started something finish it!