Kranky Posted November 11, 2013 Share The City's response: http://www.capetown....nlightMass.aspx Fair enough that they have to put safety first. They don't want a massive court order against them. Hope a solution can be found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkysa Posted November 11, 2013 Share Nobody will stop me riding my bike, ever! Economic 'riding' freedom fighters to the fore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(Deon) Posted November 11, 2013 Share Nobody will stop me riding my bike, ever! Economic 'riding' freedom fighters to the fore. Is this a "spoiling your fun" decision? Who here thinks the CoCT are revoking the permit to stop you from riding? The organisers are congratulating themselves for not "selling out" to advertising over taking the permit's requirements seriously, are you surprised we don't have a mass anymore..? Very simple. If you want something and you need to ask for permission, then as an organiser you need to adhere to the terms of the contract, or in this case permit. If you cannot, or will not comply, then you cannot expect anything else but to have the contract/permit revoked. Sure it make the authority look like the bad guy, but what choice do they have, they have been receiving complaints about the event! Even I was appalled by what I saw.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Dassie Posted November 11, 2013 Share BevSchafer @bevschafer55mAs Ward Councillor and an avid supporter of the #moonlightmass, I am commited to finding a solution in the best interest of all concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icycling Posted November 11, 2013 Share Yes. I agree. I think Moonlight Mass fits in very nicely with the wider purpose of the PPA. It could be very helpful if the PPA could use its considerable weight in resolving the impasse re. Moonlight Mass. I think it needs to be sorted out because Mass has become something of great value, not just to cyclists but also to the City of Cape Town. It shouldn't be left to die. (Or rather, be killed by officialdom) It is a vibrant demonstration of the freedom we have attained, of not only thinking outside the box, but living outside the box. However, for the PPA to become involved, it will have to adhere to the very same safety norms that the City is bleating about. For instance: The "no helmet, no ride" rule. That will have to be enforced. If this is done, structure introduced, will it still be Moonlight Mass? Will it still be the coolest ride? Will the cool kids still come? Perhaps the PPA should just help the current organiser get his problems with the City sorted out, but not become directly involved in running the event? Correctly or incorrectly so PPA does not agree (did not) with the law on helmets - in fact they see it as (saw it as) barrier to entry especially for the poorest of the poor to use bicycles as a means of transport. PPA does support the use of helmets and thus their hand out during winter months of lights and helmets on busy cycle commute routes in Cape Town - but should it be law PPA questioned / did not support this. Believe it or not international stats have shown that motorist treat cyclist without helmets better than those with helmets i.e. give cyclist without helmets more room - how they did these test and were they verified I do not know I am just quoting that which was brought to my attention while I served on the PPA committee! For bicycle racing (funride) yes helmets are a definite must, even the UCI sees this now and events like the Tour De France now make proper helmets compulsory back in the 90ies they were not! But moonlight mass???? Although I have only been once with a helmet I said to myself the next time I attend this event it would be without a helmet as a conclusive statement! When I am in Holland (which was quite often) I never use a helmet on my dutch commute bike! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kranky Posted November 11, 2013 Share Moonlight Mass's response to the City's explanatory letter: https://www.facebook...433385593428937 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkie 2 Posted November 11, 2013 Share Many people attending these mass rides drink alcohol before and during the ride....not sure what message you would want to convey as organisers allowing this. With the PTA one it is an excuse for a big piss up and the majority of people attending these events are not regular cyclists and quite frankly give the cycling community a bad name. It is just a matter of time before some incident is going to occur and many regrets will be had Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(Deon) Posted November 11, 2013 Share Correctly or incorrectly so PPA does not agree (did not) with the law on helmets - in fact they see it as (saw it as) barrier to entry especially for the poorest of the poor to use bicycles as a means of transport. PPA does support the use of helmets and thus their hand out during winter months of lights and helmets on busy cycle commute routes in Cape Town - but should it be law PPA questioned / did not support this. Believe it or not international stats have shown that motorist treat cyclist without helmets better than those with helmets i.e. give cyclist without helmets more room - how they did these test and were they verified I do not know I am just quoting that which was brought to my attention while I served on the PPA committee! For bicycle racing (funride) yes helmets are a definite must, even the UCI sees this now and events like the Tour De France now make proper helmets compulsory back in the 90ies they were not! But moonlight mass???? Although I have only been once with a helmet I said to myself the next time I attend this event it would be without a helmet as a conclusive statement! When I am in Holland (which was quite often) I never use a helmet on my dutch commute bike!Many people attending these mass rides drink alcohol before and during the ride....not sure what message you would want to convey as organisers allowing this. With the PTA one it is an excuse for a big piss up and the majority of people attending these events are not regular cyclists and quite frankly give the cycling community a bad name. It is just a matter of time before some incident is going to occur and many regrets will be hadSo here you have two points being made in one mass event, both of them oddly against the very people who have just granted them the permit to which the #MM organisers agreed to uphold. Did they even try because all I see is that they did not 'sell-out' to advertising?? How can removing a helmet possibly help the cause? It just fuels an already sensitive topic.. the larger percentage of drivers on the road see this and respond with anger. Complaints flood the desk of the man who supports cycling and the organiser does not respond to a request to meet the "Executive Director of Tourism, Events & Marketing in the City of Cape Town" to sort it out. They had CT's support and the response is one pager blase. What's wrong with just towing the line a little to achieve a broader goal?? Must another statement really top the one we're making, i.e. the goal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icycling Posted November 11, 2013 Share So here you have two points being made in one mass event, both of them oddly against the very people who have just granted them the permit to which the #MM organisers agreed to uphold. Did they even try because all I see is that they did not 'sell-out' to advertising?? How can removing a helmet possibly help the cause? It just fuels an already sensitive topic.. the larger percentage of drivers on the road see this and respond with anger. Complaints flood the desk of the man who supports cycling and the organiser does not respond to a request to meet the "Executive Director of Tourism, Events & Marketing in the City of Cape Town" to sort it out. They had CT's support and the response is one pager blase. What's wrong with just towing the line a little to achieve a broader goal?? Must another statement really top the one we're making, i.e. the goal! In terms of riding without helmets - studies have shown that on a sub-conscience (maybe even conscience) level motorist noticed these road user to be more venerable (less safe) than cyclist with helmets. It is a visual impact and yes we motorist see it! How often do you see a diver, driving badly and then notice the driver is on a cell ph - very small devise, but noticed? Likewise if you see a cyclist on the road (maybe it just me) without a helmet on, I think why the hell is the cyclist riding without a helmet - the bigger point is I have noticed this cyclist is more venerable and my intention thus is to allow even more space! Sometimes their are laws - but are the laws right or do they deserve challenging? In RSA when it comes to cycling we have laws in this country which are only in this country and not in any other part of the world - is RSA that much better than the rest of the world that we actually know better on legal matter around cyclist? RSA legal system is based on Roman Dutch law - The Dutch are probably the best country in the world regarding the legalities around cyclist and road use versa other road users! Why has our legal system not evolved in the same manor as the Dutch legal system regarding non motorized transport? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kranswurm Posted November 12, 2013 Share Many people attending these mass rides drink alcohol before and during the ride....not sure what message you would want to convey as organisers allowing this. With the PTA one it is an excuse for a big piss up and the majority of people attending these events are not regular cyclists and quite frankly give the cycling community a bad name. It is just a matter of time before some incident is going to occur and many regrets will be hadAgreedI won't go near one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big H* Posted November 12, 2013 Share Everybody is again trying to justify their own position and view. Is this again a combination of "cyclists behaving badly" and being hardegat about it and somebody being pissed off because they could or cannot make some munny???? Did cyclists destroy this themselves???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(Deon) Posted November 12, 2013 Share In terms of riding without helmets - studies have shown that on a sub-conscience (maybe even conscience) level motorist noticed these road user to be more venerable (less safe) than cyclist with helmets. It is a visual impact and yes we motorist see it! How often do you see a diver, driving badly and then notice the driver is on a cell ph - very small devise, but noticed? Likewise if you see a cyclist on the road (maybe it just me) without a helmet on, I think why the hell is the cyclist riding without a helmet - the bigger point is I have noticed this cyclist is more venerable and my intention thus is to allow even more space! Sometimes their are laws - but are the laws right or do they deserve challenging? In RSA when it comes to cycling we have laws in this country which are only in this country and not in any other part of the world - is RSA that much better than the rest of the world that we actually know better on legal matter around cyclist? RSA legal system is based on Roman Dutch law - The Dutch are probably the best country in the world regarding the legalities around cyclist and road use versa other road users! Why has our legal system not evolved in the same manor as the Dutch legal system regarding non motorized transport?Quote anything you like.. the fact remains that we want to be accepted on the road and here we have an opportunity, the best one we had to date.. Guys like you however want to use this platform as a springboard for your own agendas whether right or not. You may have a following of thousands, you may even be right but is this the time to campaign against the very item which has been the root of so many heated debates? Great way of winning favour! The City have to take the complaints seriously and you are suggesting that we should remove the only perceived "safety" item. It is not just about helmets but remove the icon representing safety and the message is lost among the participants.. Now you have guys drinking beer during the event, on the road. I ask you now, what was the purpose of the #MM as CoCT understood? On what basis was the permit granted? Did we adhere to the terms? Did we try? Why would you make a point over and above the point we are trying to make? Does it not weaken our case to have multiple agendas? (Your argument stumbles when you compare the South African road temperament to that of a more stable society btw.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuddyMike Posted November 12, 2013 Share On the helmet issue, FFS, if you have one wear it, no matter what event your doing. To compare commuters in Europe who dont wear helmets to the SA situation is ridiculous. In Europe cyclists take priority over cars pretty much all the time and cyclists have awesome dedicated cycle lanes unlike the chaos on the SA roads. There can just be no comparison, but yes you cannot prevent someone from riding a bike if they cannot afford a helmet and need to get from A to B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icycling Posted November 12, 2013 Share Quote anything you like.. the fact remains that we want to be accepted on the road and here we have an opportunity, the best one we had to date.. Guys like you however want to use this platform as a springboard for your own agendas whether right or not. You may have a following of thousands, you may even be right but is this the time to campaign against the very item which has been the root of so many heated debates? Great way of winning favour! The City have to take the complaints seriously and you are suggesting that we should remove the only perceived "safety" item. It is not just about helmets but remove the icon representing safety and the message is lost among the participants.. Now you have guys drinking beer during the event, on the road. I ask you now, what was the purpose of the #MM as CoCT understood? On what basis was the permit granted? Did we adhere to the terms? Did we try? Why would you make a point over and above the point we are trying to make? Does it not weaken our case to have multiple agendas? (Your argument stumbles when you compare the South African road temperament to that of a more stable society btw.)I am just not a half job kind of person! I like to do a job properly - the two pics below are of my equipment / me, using the correct kit for the job I feel is important! 1. Pic 1 - When at world champs I use the correct equipment and kit for that job at hand. 2. Pic 2 When at moonlight mass I use my Kettler bike - complete with dynamo light - no need for battery power light which in turn will be bad for the environment (even the rechargeable ones eventually) and kick stand! My feeling is when riding this bike I should not be required to ride with a helmet (any cycle kit for that matter - jeans and a t shirt are just fine) its just not part of the correct kit for using this bike - but the laws in RSA prohibit me from doing this! Now got to hope the pics post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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