TheNewGuy Posted March 11, 2014 Share Leave front as is, 10 speed cassette, shifter and derailleur. Or get the 12-36 9speed cassette and leave everything else. Thanx Dude will give it a shot this weekend. oh sh*t, wait, i need to get the parts first.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ84 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Thanx Dude will give it a shot this weekend. oh sh*t, wait, i need to get the parts first.......... Don't waste your money as said before,just get a 12-36 cassette.All you will need then is a cassette tool to swap the parts out. After a month or two you wont need the smallest gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowta Posted March 11, 2014 Share Don't waste your money as said before,just get a 12-36 cassette.All you will need then is a cassette tool to swap the parts out. After a month or two you wont need the smallest gear. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tankman Posted March 12, 2014 Share Are you referring to the road stuff still being the same? because that IS still the same. MTB is NOT the same anymore. EDIT: I'll wait for your explanation, I'm usually first to question the "wisdom" of sales people.I have a couple of bits and pieces lying around that I would LOVE to get working together. Yes there is a difference between 9 and 10 speed pull ratios.There has to be, there is one more gear to conted with within the same space. But I can not find any documentation that Shimano has changed it to anything other than their so called "2:1" Lets be honest, it has never been 2:1 to start with. It is just easier to say 2:1 than 1.7886 to 1. In an article on Pinbike a while back, they asked the dude from Shimano if 9 speed rear deraileurs can be used with 10speed shifters and his answer was "No not really". Not a very definitive NO then.They then asked him what the difference was between the 9 and 10speed rear deraileur. "We made the cage slightly longer to accommodate the gear ratio". So not much then. This got me thinking: The total width of the 9 and 10 speed cassettes are exactly the same, the width between the cogs are different by means of the spacers between the cogs. If the cassettes were different widths, we would need longer or shorter freebody's. So the Rear Deraileur operates in the exact same space for 9 or 10 speed. Shift increments and pull ratio is controlled by the shifters. There is no magic happening inside a rear deraileur. It attaches to the cable and stays exactly where you attach it, the cable moves when the shifter pulls it. The deraileur moves by means of the spring but its position on the the cable never moves. So why will a 9 speed rear deraileur not work with 10speed everything else if the pull ratio is controlled by the shifters and the deraileur still operates withing the same space? We all know Sram 9spd deraileur doesnt work with Sram 10speed shifters, I asked, but no one really knows why not. Sram did something righ by forcing you to buy new stuff. Shimano is pulling a fast one. I had a 9 speed Dura Ace groupset on my bike years back. Upgraded to 10 speed. Upgraded everything except the rear deraileur and everyone told me it wont work. When I asked buy WHY NOT? "Because it is 9 speed, you cant use 9 speed with 10". It worked, perfectly! So my question then, why will it not work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotSoBigBen Posted March 12, 2014 Share From real life experience, yes not just comments and theories I KNOW that a 10sp Shimano RD does not work with a 9sp drivetrain period! Happened to me at Epic in 2011, my RD broke halfway through day 6 and I bought at great expense a new one at a 'tech' point. Could not get it to shift properly to all the gears, a few would work then others not. Got back to the bike mechs and they spent ages trying to sort it out, ventually realised it was 10sp and I had 9sp shifters, put on a 9sp RD and all was hunky dory ..... Question to you Tankman is other than all the theories and ideas you have expressed have you actually done it? Just wondering as if you have it would make me wonder why I had such problems and I was with the bike mechs for every minute while they tried to solve it so I know there was no BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Fastbastard Mayhem Posted March 12, 2014 Share Yes there is a difference between 9 and 10 speed pull ratios.There has to be, there is one more gear to conted with within the same space. But I can not find any documentation that Shimano has changed it to anything other than their so called "2:1" Lets be honest, it has never been 2:1 to start with. It is just easier to say 2:1 than 1.7886 to 1. In an article on Pinbike a while back, they asked the dude from Shimano if 9 speed rear deraileurs can be used with 10speed shifters and his answer was "No not really". Not a very definitive NO then.They then asked him what the difference was between the 9 and 10speed rear deraileur. "We made the cage slightly longer to accommodate the gear ratio". So not much then. This got me thinking: The total width of the 9 and 10 speed cassettes are exactly the same, the width between the cogs are different by means of the spacers between the cogs. If the cassettes were different widths, we would need longer or shorter freebody's. So the Rear Deraileur operates in the exact same space for 9 or 10 speed. Shift increments and pull ratio is controlled by the shifters. There is no magic happening inside a rear deraileur. It attaches to the cable and stays exactly where you attach it, the cable moves when the shifter pulls it. The deraileur moves by means of the spring but its position on the the cable never moves. So why will a 9 speed rear deraileur not work with 10speed everything else if the pull ratio is controlled by the shifters and the deraileur still operates withing the same space? We all know Sram 9spd deraileur doesnt work with Sram 10speed shifters, I asked, but no one really knows why not. Sram did something righ by forcing you to buy new stuff. Shimano is pulling a fast one. I had a 9 speed Dura Ace groupset on my bike years back. Upgraded to 10 speed. Upgraded everything except the rear deraileur and everyone told me it wont work. When I asked buy WHY NOT? "Because it is 9 speed, you cant use 9 speed with 10". It worked, perfectly! So my question then, why will it not work? Tank, the pull ratio is NOT just determined by the shifter. It's also determined by the lever rate within the rear derailleur ie the length of the lever that the cable is attached to. 1:1 means that for every mm a cable moves in the sheath, the RD will move 1mm. If you change the lever length on the RD the leverage or pull ratio WILL change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tankman Posted March 12, 2014 Share That makes sense Cpt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tankman Posted March 12, 2014 Share From real life experience, yes not just comments and theories I KNOW that a 10sp Shimano RD does not work with a 9sp drivetrain period! Happened to me at Epic in 2011, my RD broke halfway through day 6 and I bought at great expense a new one at a 'tech' point. Could not get it to shift properly to all the gears, a few would work then others not. Got back to the bike mechs and they spent ages trying to sort it out, ventually realised it was 10sp and I had 9sp shifters, put on a 9sp RD and all was hunky dory ..... Question to you Tankman is other than all the theories and ideas you have expressed have you actually done it? Just wondering as if you have it would make me wonder why I had such problems and I was with the bike mechs for every minute while they tried to solve it so I know there was no BS. I have done so with Road stuff yup and it works. Getting a 9 speed xt deraileur to go onto my 10speed setup later today to test. Only documentation I could find from Sihmano is where they said Mega is not compatible with Dyna-Sys, other than the "Not really" answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tankman Posted March 12, 2014 Share One of our Mechanics has done exactly that on his mtb, we have been chatting about this yesterday. He has 10speed shifters and 9speed XT deraileur ... he says ... it works! Chro Mo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chro Mo Posted March 12, 2014 Share Been interchanging 9 and 10spd shimano RDs for years - no issues Reading Lennard Zinn's comments on velonews makes it seem that the pull ratios for some of the later groups are indeed different now e.g. trhe DA9000 good read here: http://velonews.competitor.com/2014/02/bikes-and-tech/technical-faq/technical-faq-revisiting-drivetrain-cross-compatibility_316828 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowta Posted March 12, 2014 Share I have done so with Road stuff yup and it works. Getting a 9 speed xt deraileur to go onto my 10speed setup later today to test. Only documentation I could find from Sihmano is where they said Mega is not compatible with Dyna-Sys, other than the "Not really" answer.Been interchanging 9 and 10spd shimano RDs for years - no issues Reading Lennard Zinn's comments on velonews makes it seem that the pull ratios for some of the later groups are indeed different now e.g. trhe DA9000 good read here: http://velonews.comp...tibility_316828 Yes, it works with ROAD components and you CAN use 10 speed ROAD shifters with 9 speed MTB derailleurs with no issue. It's the MTB stuff were things are different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowta Posted March 12, 2014 Share Yes, it works with ROAD components and you CAN use 10 speed ROAD shifters with 9 speed MTB derailleurs with no issue. It's the MTB stuff were things are different Can't comment on DA9000 stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowta Posted March 12, 2014 Share We all know Sram 9spd deraileur doesnt work with Sram 10speed shifters, I asked, but no one really knows why not. SRAMs 9 speed stuff has a 1:1 ratio and so does their 10 speed (exact actuation). Confusing isn't it? Here's the breakdown Firstly 9 speed (1:1)If you check the amount of cable pulled per click of the shifter you will see that they are not the same throughtout the 8 shifts.The 1:1 is the average pull ratio across all the gear shifts, this is determined by the geometry and path of the parallelogram of the derailleur, to enable the derailleur to move laterally by the same amount for each shift. No 10 Speed (Exact Actuation)The amount of cable pulled by the shifter is the same for each shift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marko35s Posted March 12, 2014 Share I may have a barely used one (2 rides) in my spares box tooDo you still have it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2 X 2 Posted March 12, 2014 Share Nine speed rear derailer definitely works with 10 speed cassette. I have this set up on the tandem and had it for a couple of years without problems (SLX derailer with 11/34 Casette) However with the Road 10 speed shifters on the tandem you cannot use a 10 speed derailer, it does not work, you must use a 9 speed. Apparently you can even use a 8 speed derailer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowta Posted March 12, 2014 Share Nine speed rear derailer definitely works with 10 speed cassette. I have this set up on the tandem and had it for a couple of years without problems (SLX derailer with 11/34 Casette) However with the Road 10 speed shifters on the tandem you cannot use a 10 speed derailer, it does not work, you must use a 9 speed. Apparently you can even use a 8 speed derailer Yes, the Shimano 7,8,9,10 speed road and the 7,8,9 speed MTB shifters and derailleurs are all cross compatible. 2 X 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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