The Veganism Thread

[Milkman]

To be fair - by your logic meat should be completely banned. It is responsible for obesity, high cholesterol, increased risk of heart disease, body odour, bad breath, dehydration, gastrointesitnal issues and kidney problems.

 

Meat consumption makes veganism look positively saintly by comparison.

 

As with anything - if you do it wrong and/or you're a nutcase/*** parent you'll end up with health issues.

With respect , I disagree with you that meat consumption is responsible for obesity, high cholesterol , heart disease or any of the medical problems you mention .

Maybe eating too much meat might cause those , but eating or drinking too much of almost anything might cause those problems.

I don’t know how you can draw the conclusion that eating meat causes those problems ?

[Milkman]

I think most of those problems are actually caused by over eating ( mostly sugar )and under exercising .

[Odinson]

Just interested why you say "shouldn't" as opposed to "won't"?

 

What Imploder said. The only guarantees in this world is death and taxes. 

 

There are no absolutes in this world.

[Odinson]

With respect , I disagree with you that meat consumption is responsible for obesity, high cholesterol , heart disease or any of the medical problems you mention .

Maybe eating too much meat might cause those , but eating or drinking too much of almost anything might cause those problems.

I don’t know how you can draw the conclusion that eating meat causes those problems ?

 

 

I think most of those problems are actually caused by over eating ( mostly sugar )and under exercising .

 

Cause that's what the literature says. Every week there's more science coming out establishing the link between animal protein and these chronic diseases.

 

To add onto what Eldron alluded to, the world isn't ravaged by riboflavin deficiency, but by heart disease, diabetes, obesity, cancer, etc. 

 

Just a few days ago: 

Association of Animal and Plant Protein Intake With All-Cause and Cause-Specific Mortality

 

Conclusions and Relevance  In this large prospective study, higher plant protein intake was associated with lower total and CVD-related mortality. Although animal protein intake was not associated with mortality outcomes, replacement of red meat protein or processed meat protein with plant protein was associated with lower total, cancer-related, and CVD-related mortality.

 

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/2748453

[Milkman]

You're right, but that only speaks ill of the family for neglecting to put the kid on a healthy vegan diet. If you want to go through a vegan pregnancy and have a vegan kid, do your homework, make sure the lifestyle is sorted and there shouldn't be issues.

 

Aaaa , now I get your angle .... You wanna find a cure for the population problem of the world !????

 

Seriously though , Odi , you give too much credit to the human race if you think the majority of the population might be educated enough to know what nutrients their children needs .

A vegan diet for children is not a good thing when you take the general population into account .

[Chris_]

With respect , I disagree with you that meat consumption is responsible for obesity, high cholesterol , heart disease or any of the medical problems you mention .

Maybe eating too much meat might cause those , but eating or drinking too much of almost anything might cause those problems.

I don’t know how you can draw the conclusion that eating meat causes those problems ?

 

This is a bold line to draw in the sand from a studied dietary health expert.

 

Very interesting.

[Odinson]

Aaaa , now I get your angle .... You wanna find a cure for the population problem of the world !

 

Seriously though , Odi , you give too much credit to the human race if you think the majority of the population might be educated enough to know what nutrients their children needs .

A vegan diet for children is not a good thing when you take the general population into account .

 

Your misanthropy warms my cold heart, but I think if we got to point where most parents no longer hot box their kids on the school run, I think we can figure this out. 

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

To be fair - by your logic meat should be completely banned. It is responsible for obesity, high cholesterol, increased risk of heart disease, body odour, bad breath, dehydration, gastrointesitnal issues and kidney problems.

 

Meat consumption makes veganism look positively saintly by comparison.

 

As with anything - if you do it wrong and/or you're a nutcase/*** parent you'll end up with health issues.

Except it's not. Almost all of those studies are epidemiological, don't control for smoking / drinking / drugs and other lifestyle related indulgences, and simply rely on questionnaires filled in by humans who have a notoriously bad recollection of what they eat.

 

Meat by itself doesn't cause those issues, and we're seeing this in the current science. It's the additional stuff over and abive that that does.

 

In addition, vegans are generally more likely to be more aware of other health damaging practices, and control for them better than those who follow an SAD. In many cases they just have a look at all cause mortality in people who answer "yes" to the do you eat meat question, and make the leap that a reduction in life expectancy or increase in disease rates is due to that, instead of the other things that people do. Like smoke, drink, drugs, excessive carbs and fat etc etc.

 

It's well documented, unfortunately.

 

Also. Have a look at the history behind the vilification of saturated fat. Started post ww2 to prop up the megacropping (wheat corn etc) in the states, and the scientists with the other option (hypothesizing that meat and fat and veg are the way instead of wheat and corn and carbs) were German.

 

Again, America protecting its interests, and creating the food pyramid (and vilifying sat fat and animal products to boot) in order to push breakfast cereal and such.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

Cause that's what the literature says. Every week there's more science coming out establishing the link between animal protein and these chronic diseases.

 

To add onto what Eldron alluded to, the world isn't ravaged by riboflavin deficiency, but by heart disease, diabetes, obesity, cancer, etc.

 

Just a few days ago: Association of Animal and Plant Protein Intake With All-Cause and Cause-Specific Mortality

 

Conclusions and RelevanceIn this large prospective study, higher plant protein intake was associated with lower total and CVD-related mortality. Although animal protein intake was not associated with mortality outcomes, replacement of red meat protein or processed meat protein with plant protein was associated with lower total, cancer-related, and CVD-related mortality.

 

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/2748453

Yes, because those who choose to follow a vegan lifestyle are generally more health conscious overall.

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

This is a bold line to draw in the sand from a studied dietary health expert.

 

Very interesting.

The data supports it, and we're getting more data all the time. Thank people like Taubes, Noakes etc etc for actually shedding light on stuff like this.

 

Animal protein is NOT the demon that it has been painted as. This is becoming clearer and clearer all the time.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Captain Fatbastard Mayhem

[Milkman]

This is a bold line to draw in the sand from a studied dietary health expert.

 

Very interesting.

I’m sorry , I am not following you ? Are you being sarcastic with me , or am I missing something?

[Odinson]

Yes, because those who choose to follow a vegan lifestyle are generally more health conscious overall.

 

You misunderstand the study, Myles. 

[Odinson]

I’m sorry , I am not following you ? Are you being sarcastic with me , or am I missing something?

 

You're being mistaken for 100Tours. 

[Chris_]

I’m sorry , I am not following you ? Are you being sarcastic with me , or am I missing something?

 

My bad, wrong person. Apologies!

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

You misunderstand the study, Myles. 

How, Odi?

 

Can this not be taken as "no additional behaviours were included"? It ONLY says that meat intake was controlled for. 3 categories.

 

1 - meat eaters

2 - those that transitioned

3 - vegans / vegetarians

 

if you're in 1, and you die, it must be the meat. Can't be smoking, drinking, bad health choices, bad additional food choices. Meat was the over-riding contributing factor to any difference in ACM. Also doesn't control for types of protein ie processed, non-processed, etc etc. 

If you're in 2, you can't possibly have a generally better / more healthy outlook on lifestyle factors such as smoking, drinking, partying, pancakes etc etc and any change in mortality must be due to the meat. 

 

Likewise for 3. 

 

Like it or not, those who CHOOSE to forego meat generally also have a better overall health standard, due to their decision to look at their nutrition. Likewise for people in group 1 who CHOOSE not to eat processed foodstuffs, because they're bad, m'kaaay. They have the same sort of view on their nutrition. But they fall into group 1 'cos they eat the bad, nasty animal flesh. 

 

Bottom line is that doing a dietary study WITHOUT controlling for extraneous circumstances like smoking, drinking etc etc and without going further into protein sources AS WELL AS other foodstuffs is not going to give accurate results. 

 

 

Design, Setting, and Participants  This prospective cohort study included 70 696 participants in the Japan Public Health Center–based Prospective Cohort who were aged 45 to 74 years and had no history of cancer, cerebrovascular disease, or ischemic heart disease at study baseline. Data were collected from January 1, 1995, through December 31, 1999, with follow-up completed December 31, 2016, during which 12 381 total deaths were documented. Dietary intake information was collected through a validated food frequency questionnaire and used to estimate protein intake in all participants. Participants were grouped into quintile categories based on their protein intake, expressed as a percentage of total energy. Data were analyzed from July 18, 2017, through April 10, 2019.

Main Outcomes and Measures  Hazard ratios (HRs) and 95% CIs for all-cause and cause-specific mortality were estimated using Cox proportional hazards regression models with adjustment for potential confounding factors.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Captain Fatbastard Mayhem

[Captain Fastbastard Mayhem]

And THAT is why I despise epidemiological studies. 'Cos they don't control for other circumstances which may have a far higher causation rate. Meta-analyses using epidemiological studies are even worse, because they're just compounding the bad study problem. 

Edited August 28, 2019 by Captain Fatbastard Mayhem