Groupset Differences

[Slave]

At the risk of incurring the wrath of certain hubbers for starting another thread where one already exists,  (If such a thread exists, mods please feel free to move it / merge it / whatever), I would like to find out:

 

What are the differences between the various groupsets? (not a debate about Shimano vs Campag. Saw that one)

ie. why Dura Ace, 105, Ultegra etc. what is the diffs?

 

What exactly is a groupset? Does it include brakes / brake calipers or is it just the chain, chain rings and deraileurs and cranks?

 

10 speed vs 8 speed? (I understand that you get 11 - 23, 12- 25. The 11 refers to 11 teeth on smallest cog and 23 to the relative number of teeth on the biggest gear cog. 10 speed will give two extra gear cogs over an 8 speed. The smallest gear is an 11t, right? So if you can get an 11 on an 8 speed, why does one need a ten speed?)

 

(You have the same ultimate gearing with more gear cogs to work through getting there. Seems like a bit daft to me. translate as "eight is enough").

 

Can one cross polinate? In other words, can I have an Ultegra chain ring set with a 105 eight speed casette at the back?

 

I need to know all this stuff as I am going to be getting a "new frame" soon and build up a roadie. The frame is (as far as I am able to work out a 2005 Trek 1500).

 

My plan is to ge the frame and use it in the interim with my eight speed shimano at the back. Then I'll get a more zhoosh set of wheels later. One thing I'll probably not do is go 9 or 10 speed. Just can't find any logical answer to that one.

 

Deep section wheels. Heard that the deepsection wheels are supposed to be more aero. I assume that is more efficiently aerodynamic.

 

Let's get realistic here and look at it from a technical rather than asthetic point of view: The deep sections (some of them at least), look really cool. However, how much diffs can it really make?

 

It's all about the legs right? From my limited experience, my "new" jalco drx 4000 definitely seem to have less rolling resistance that my old Rigidas, but this may also be because I pump my tyres much harder than I used to. The newer wheels have a different rim config to the rigidas in that they are (slightly) more of a deep section. I just can't get my mind around the fact that the difference is merely from the "new wheels" being more aero.

 

 

 

[IMPACT]

Dura Ace is lighter, more expensive, made from supposedly better materials and offers more bling than say 105. The average rider out on the road there would probably be just as happy with a 105 groupset.

 

The ten speed cassette gives you smaller steps between the different gear ratios so that you can fine tune your cadence better.  

[Matchstix]

You can use different groupset parts together as long as they are the same speed. the thickness of chains and chainrings are different . 8spd being thicker than 9 and 9 thicker than 10. ( in mine opinion the life span of ten speed is going to be less than 8)

the derailleurs should work on all 3 since the freehub size is the same. the shifters are the important thing here

 

 

[Slave]

Thanks Impact.

 

Cadence is something that I never used to bother with. Just got into the smallest gear I could power and off I went.

 

On the advcie of someone from this forum, I have tried to change that behaviour over the past two weeks and have found that spinning is not as bad as I thought it would be.

 

I have been training in lighter gears for the past two weeks or so and strangely enough, have improved my average speeds doing this.

[linnega]

The answer to your question on number of cogs is that enough is never enough.  I assure you I was overjoyed when I moved from my ten-speed setup to 12-speed.  I am of course referring to the total gear options given that the best you could get at the time was 6 cogs on the rear cassette.  That was enough - in fact 5 at the back was enough.

As for the incremental differences between groupsets, once you get to 105 or Veloce or any SRAM the quality increments from there are very small.  The massive amounts of money you pay are for lighter kit and maybe newer (although not always better) technology.

 

Wheels is another area where huge amounts of money are spent for incredibly small benefits.  A standard 32 spoked wheel with decent box rims will perform almost on a par with your R20k carbon clinchers.  In fact, a handmade wheel with a top quality hub will certainly be more reliable and durable than your R20k wheels, so if you factor those into your measure of performance, then the handmades are better.

 

 

[Kiwi]

Dura Ace uses forged alloy for the cranks so they stay stiff for years longer than say 105, so they shift better in the long run. Dura Ace brakes are also very good.

 

You can build an el-cheapo 10 speed groupset by using what ever 10 speed STI's you can get with what ever 10 speed chain and cassette even use 8 speed rear and front mechs like Sora. Remember the rear hub is still 130 odd mm wide for 7 speed or 11 speed so the space for the cassette is the same.

 

You can mix Campag with Shimano as well, this works best with 10 speed as the spacing difference between the individual cogs in the cassettes in almost nil. It is best to use a Campag front mech if you are using Campag Ergo Levers though as the Campag front mech has a different amount of leverage on the cage.

 

Campag 10 speed chains work really well on Shimano 10 speed set ups, they seem to shift a little better.

[JA-Q001]

A good way to explain why you get 8spd and now 10spd is by using your car. if you have a 7spd ferrari, it goes fastest in its 7th gear, but you wont drop every 2nd gear and shift from 1st to 3rd to 5th to 7th. You even out the amount of jumps between the gears with more gears, thus a smaller drop and less shock on your engine (legs).

[Slave]

Now the picture is emerging, thanks all.

 

I understand it thus:

 

On my 8 speed, top gear is 25t then decreases by two teeth for every gear. (23,21,19,17,15,13,11) On a ten speed, you would go from say 23 to 22, 20, 18, 16, 14, 13, 12, 11)

 

So, the steps between gears is less.

 

Useful when one approaches the crest of a hill and it starts to level off, one can begin to change and accelerate sooner because there is not such a big diffs, between the gears.

 

Then regards the goupsets, I understand that Dura Ace is the top of the range stuff for the serious ous. Ultegra would be next and 105 and lower would be suitable for someone of my talent and ability.

 

Is there anything wrong with Sora?

[VincentBikes]

 

Now the picture is emerging' date=' thanks all.

 

I understand it thus:

 

On my 8 speed, top gear is 25t then decreases by two teeth for every gear. (23,21,19,17,15,13,11) On a ten speed, you would go from say 23 to 22, 20, 18, 16, 14, 13, 12, 11)

 

So, the steps between gears is less.

 

Useful when one approaches the crest of a hill and it starts to level off, one can begin to change and accelerate sooner because there is not such a big diffs, between the gears.

 

Then regards the goupsets, I understand that Dura Ace is the top of the range stuff for the serious ous. Ultegra would be next and 105 and lower would be suitable for someone of my talent and ability.

 

Is there anything wrong with Sora?

 

No it's just cheaper, heavier and won't last as long

[/quote']

[Slave]

Felty, one could argue / debate that technology changes are far more rapid today than they have been before. This would render even the newest technology as outdated before the stuff got a chance to wear out, depending on the amount of riding done.

 

Let's assume that I accept your argument as truth. What would be the difference in say KM that a 105 groupset would outlast the next level down? Are we talking huge or minimal?

 

Then we can debate the value issue. Some stuff although cheaper, is usually nasty and doesn't last. You usually have to replace it very soon so it in fact costs more in the short-term.

 

Out of what is available today, what would be the best in terms of value?

 

Seriously, I think a Dura Ace groupset would outlast the rest of my natural cycling life unless I get to be the oldest finisher of the 94.7 in 30 years time.

[VincentBikes]

 

Felty' date=' one could argue / debate that technology changes are far more rapid today than they have been before. This would render even the newest technology as outdated before the stuff got a chance to wear out, depending on the amount of riding done.

 

Let's assume that I accept your argument as truth. What would be the difference in say KM that a 105 groupset would outlast the next level down? Are we talking huge or minimal?

 

Then we can debate the value issue. Some stuff although cheaper, is usually nasty and doesn't last. You usually have to replace it very soon so it in fact costs more in the short-term.

 

Out of what is available today, what would be the best in terms of value?

 

Seriously, I think a Dura Ace groupset would outlast the rest of my natural cycling life unless I get to be the oldest finisher of the 94.7 in 30 years time.

[/quote']

 

Everthing is relative and there are a lot off variables that apply ie:

 

How many km's do you do and how is the maintenance on your groupset done among some of the factors. Dura Ace have different bearings in the idler wheels to Sora etc.

 

I have seen people quote 60000km for 105 and 80000km for Dura Ace life span while Sora I have no information on.

 

The price difference between Sora and 105 is arguably justifiable as a Sora RD is around R220 and a 105 is R520 while Dura Ace is R1200 depending on where you buy from.

 

Generally for an alround good bike 105 should be fine (or campy equivalant not sure which one) and is good value for money in my humble opinion. I had a Raleigh RC6000 with 105 fitted on it and currently has about 13000km's on it with no problems to date.

 

[Canaris]

Felty' date=' one could argue / debate that technology changes are far more rapid today than they have been before. This would render even the newest technology as outdated before the stuff got a chance to wear out, depending on the amount of riding done.

 

Let's assume that I accept your argument as truth. What would be the difference in say KM that a 105 groupset would outlast the next level down? Are we talking huge or minimal?

 

Then we can debate the value issue. Some stuff although cheaper, is usually nasty and doesn't last. You usually have to replace it very soon so it in fact costs more in the short-term.

 

Out of what is available today, what would be the best in terms of value?

 

Seriously, I think a Dura Ace groupset would outlast the rest of my natural cycling life unless I get to be the oldest finisher of the 94.7 in 30 years time.

[/quote']

 

Actually, the major issue with cycling is weight.  THe more you pay the less you get.  A 11 speed or 10 speed chain will wear out faster than an 8 or 7 speed chain.  LIghter components will wear faster than heavier ones.  Some Euro pro teams aim at chorus or Ultegra rather than record or Dura Ace, because they cheaper, and last longer.  Only the top pro teams use sponsorwear.  Best value for money is 105 or Campy Veloce/Centaur.  You can also consider Tiagra or Mirage (if your image can handle it).

 

Xenon and Sora are just a little to "cheap" (largely because the Sora shifting is rubbish)

 

9 speed is more "cost effective" than 10/11 speed.

[Slave]

Thanks mate.

 

Yeah. lotsa variables.

 

Sounds like 105 will probably be the best value for me then. At my level / ability, Dura Ace is really over the top. 105 will last me long enough and will do a good enough job for me.

 

I think the best sort of result I could look for is about a three hour 94.7 and that is probably going to be a major push for me. Loads a training and more dedication than I am currently giving the sport.

 

Must say tho' that since I have learned a lot from this forum, I am enjoying my riding a lot more.

 

Still much to learn and enjoy.

 

Thanks once again for all the comments and opinions.

[Gman1834]

 

Thanks mate.

 

Sounds like 105 will probably be the best value for me then. At my level / ability' date=' Dura Ace is really over the top. 105 will last me long enough and will do a good enough job for me.

 

I think the best sort of result I could look for is about a three hour 94.7 and that is probably going to be a major push for me.

[/quote']

 

I must agree, did a sub 3 last year with Tiagra and 12kg bike, if the tiagra is setup properly the shifting is a dream, if you want to plash some money get some nice light weight wheels and a set of GP4000s

 

[Zatek]

I did a 3:02 with a 2008 Raleigh RC1000 with a 105 crank but FD and RD was Shimano 2200.

[JPW#]

I agree , 105 best bang for buck, I'm still riding 8 and 9 speed bikes  (

Will have to go over to 10 speed in the near future just because of lack of availability of parts.