ROAG & Hill2Hill

[mrmed]

Last week I wanted to enter Hill2Hill, so .................

I filled in all my information on ROAG and entered the race. Then I found that the race is seeded so I sent a mail outlining my results in races (stage and one day) only to have a polite e-mail sent back to me saying sorry, but I'll have to start at the back because only ROAG events count towards their seeding.

 

I've got no real problem starting at the back, but if I (and other people in the same boat as me) ride hard and there are people with a seeding of 2.58 in front of me I think there's going to be some accidents in the forest after the start of the race.

 

I really believe ROAG need to do the hard work (this is the reason they refuse to seed me and I presume others) and get everyone seeded according to their level.

 

I think seeding is a great idea, but there needs to be one data base.

 

I would love your comments, so I can send them to ROAG.

mrmed2009-07-08 00:16:16

[bd54]

Nearly of the Roag events are held in KZN which is hard for the guys who live in JHB or other areas!They maybe need to hold a few events outside if KZN.

 

Maybe send them some MTN national marathon series results or last years drifter series, if you have not done any of those events you need to start doing more races & until then you going to be starting at the back.

[mrmed]

Actually, I sent them these results, but only ROAG events count.

 

Like I said, I'll start at the back, but at Hill2Hill because of the nature of the start of the race, it's going to be dangerous.

 

If there was 10km of rolling jeep track or dirt road after the start, I wouldn't even have posted here.

mrmed2009-07-08 01:51:24

[Mountie]

I'm a member of ROAG (just as it is so much easier), but only rode one of their events, the Sani2C.  I also do not agree that they only use ROAG events, as it is a bit limited.  For us here in Gauteng the MTN series is definitely a better indication and I support you guys.

 

Hope you can influence their way of thinking.  We have so many different database systems and timing chips, that it is quite annoying...  I know it is a commercial thing, but surely CSA should start to use our membership money and hammer down some standards or guidelines (at least).

[Dustman]

As a local Natal boy i can see both sides of the story. I understand that CSA would not give ROAG access to their database hence they had to create their own.This is also Roags first year and they are already expanding in to the road cycling events. The meaning to this is obvious and i think it will just be a matter of time before their database includes most cyclists. We have been using the Roag system for a few months now and i hope it stays, as it works very well and is effiecient. I do think that they possible can consider giving cyclists from other areas a ceeding based on a major race like the MTN series etc. As this is a huge race with lots of entries i can also see their side of the story. Please remenber that abusing other cyclists who have a higher seeding than you that are slower than is not in the spirit of Mtbiking. The race is also 100km in length so you will have many km to overtake the slower riders.

[Stretch]

a quick look of all entries reveals that 70% of all entries have a seeding. This same seeding index was used at karkloof with relatively few problems.Since then, the seeding index database has grown considerably. Yes.. there will always be some people without seedings, that is inevitable.

 

 

 

As for including other non-roag events, i believe it has been discussed extensively on the hub before. It all boils down to being able to associate a Roag member with a result. a large percentage of result holders will not provide an ID number with the result even if requested. without this, reliably matching results is almost impossible. And even with it, can cause problems as seeding is a factor of not only of your time.

 

 

 

I definitely hear where you are coming from, but i think the 70% figure shows that this will become a non-issue in due course.

[M44SE]

I heard that ROAG is looking at getting in Gauteng and other areas, its still new and growing fast, I rode Karkloof and Sani so get a seeding for H2H, and believe me the batch starts are heaps better than the Gauteng Mass Bottleneck Brawls, id rather start at the back of a batched race than the back of a Mass start!

[GTfan]

That was the nice thing about the Baynesfield ride, was an open field

[TimW]

Just to clear up a few things

 

Hill 2 Hill is using the ROAG seeding system, but we are aware that, as ROAG is still a relatively new system, not everybody is seeded and particularly the non-KZN riders are not all going to be seeded, so we have made a plan to accomodate you all.

 

In short, anybody (from outside KZN) who has not done any ROAG events (ie has not done either Karkloof, Sani or Eston, or any of the others) will be seeded manually.

 

We do not believe that anybody within KZN has any excuse not to have done at least one ROAG event this season -- the list of ROAG events is so long that if you have not done one then you are probably not riding much and possibly deserve to be seeded in the last group anyway.

 

So, if you want to be seeded for Hill 2 Hill and live in KZN, come and do a race (Golovane this weekend, Eston coming up or one of the others listed on the Roag entries page). If you do not live in KZN and are not going to come and race in the best province then simply send an e-mail to info@hill2hill.co.za (not ROAG ... Hill 2 Hill organises the race, ROAG organises the entries and a million other things). You must include the race you did, the distance, your time, the winner and his time and the date (ONLY 2009 events) ... we will then seed you manually ... SIMPLE

 

Now, if I can quickly swop hats:

As for ROAG not using other results ... in a perfect world all results would be used. However, living with imperfections as we all do (and HR this has nothing to do with your partner) we have to make do with what we can get.

 

To use other data it needs to be in a format which is compatible with our system and verifiable (do you know how many J Smits have entered races in SA .. and are they all the same John Smit, or John Smith captured incorrectly by some underpaid wife of a race organiser, or Johann Smit etc etc). There are a few other entities who are not prepared to share their data with us, there are a few who do not reply to e-mails and phonecalls asking if they will ... and there are those who still continue to criticise ROAG.

 

So, we took the decision to use data we could verify as being correct and which we had access to.

 

It may not be perfect but as we get more data from more races the seeding will become more and more accurate -- remember we do not dictate what timing system has to be used, so if an event wants to use ROAG for entries and be part of the National Series (and so has to used the designated timing system they can) as long as they agree to share results with us.

 

Remember the ROAG system has been in operation for  less than six months !!!!! I believe it is working brilliantly.

 

 

 

[M44SE]

[M44SE]

what you guys are doing is going to make MTB racing better!! Well done keep it up!!!

[mrmed]

Thanks for the concession. Looking forward to it.

[Eldron]

Seeding is always a contensious issue - me - I'm a "put your time in" kinda guy, get there early, secure a spot in front and wait...

 

The Nissan Series is a good example - the first race was unseeded - I pitched up early and started in about 20th place. Second race is seeded so no worries.

 

I've done loads of mtb races in and around jhb and people are mostly honest and start where they fit in and start.

 

That said - mtb races are getting huge now and the sheer number of people requires some kind of seeding system. ROAG seem to be on the up and up so let's give them some time to get it right (mostly they seem to be there already). Think of the logistics: 600+ cyclists and only a handful of organisers - getting through a load of "please reseed me" emails takes time and effort.

 

Better ROAG than nothing I say! Great idea - keep it up chaps!

 

 

 

 

[BrettAS]

I just spent the last few days up north in your smokey city discussing exactly this point.

 

i had excellent meetings with Fritz Pienaar and others and believe that we are all talking the same language now. we agreed that it is imperative that our entry procedures and data is compatible so we can use each others results for seeding.

 

hopefully in the next month or so we will be able to implement a system that is universal.

 

watch this space!!

[Bikalot]

races which have now become roag races seem to have seen an drastic increase in entry fees!whilst the roag system may create a database which makes things easier for the race organiser and the cyclist the increase in entry does not seem to justify the convience

matie2009-07-10 04:13:48

[BrettAS]

to the best of my knowledge, thats not correct.

can you provide facts to support your statement?

 

i do know that ROAG administered events have seen increased participation of between 50-100%.