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Hmm, you have a point Gumpole, but what I mean is the body can only do so much, its not possible to be without air to the brain for 14 minutes (unassisted) without suffering damage or death, sure we have people drowned for 20 minutes, but its in freezing water, the body has shut down etc. The same in running, cycling, whatever, its not possible to maintain a massive given output over an extended period, muscles tire,the brain tires,tendons break,the cardio vascular system can no longer cope, the liver gives in and you WILL stop - its just plain normal human phisiology. Within reason certain parameters can be broken, I am with you there, but its a genetic movement, the parents pass excellant genes on to their kids who pass better genes on again and eventually, sure most barriers will break, but in this or the very near future I cant see it.

"Assuming an Alpe d?Huez mass of 73kg that means that I?d estimate Lance would be capable of putting out approximately 452 watts for an hour at a mean elevation of 1250 meters." I can accept that, it sort of ties in with logical thinking whereby LA looked to improve time by other methods like clothing,bike design etc - this ties in with any medical facts which state that a human can only go so far (there are finite parameters within which the body can function) without "assistance" tecnical, chemical or otherwise. As for the other figures I will have to digest them a bit, but glancing through they dont seem odd. As an aside, when it comes to possible "curved balls" or waaay out of the books records, I always refer back to the world breath hold competition, I forget dates now but some fellow claimed to be able to hold his breath for more than 13 minutes, this was astounding, as all medical data on human phisiology pointed towards this been an absolute impossibility, so he was tested - he made 14 minutes - the medical world was in shock, how was it possible, so they dug a little deeper and guess what - HE CHEATED - it was found he breathed pure O2 for 40 minutes before been tested. To this day nobody has surpassed the medical limit of (I think) 8 minutes and 49secs give or take a few secs. Medical statistics and human phisiology prove this is just not possible unaided. So when I see some stats I have to wonder...........!!

Hurmph!! Sounds like a good way to sell bike attachments to me.! So when you do a Winning timed race (are they still around ) you have to remove the champ. chip bicycle clip and I guess install a winning time one?? Been rather technically challenged, it sounds a bit like an issue to me. Surely there has to be a logical explanation?? It may not work is rather vague!!

"06 Giro saw Basso in complete control and very relaxed and unstressed - with that in mind I think that 400w over the last 6 climbs is reasonable - another 20w from a top rider in a fresher state". Hmmm, I shall have to think about that Bikemax!! I am actually quite interested in these figures, because from all my experience the physical side of the body gives out substantially after the mental side (ie) usually when the mind says enough, there is still something left in the tank, or the brain will convince you its time to slow down for eg - this is not unusual, almost all endurance athletes under stress will have a mind problem before a physical one - but here it would appear that there was no shut down mentally or physically, in fact the figures remain fairly constant even though both athletes are fatiguing - which in any trainers book is odd, if not suspicious. Certainly an athlete under severe stress (and I think Basso was also under stress) will slow down involuntarly when a certain thresh hold is reached - the mind stops the body, its just physics!. But in both these cases this dos not appear to happen which is odd.

"Wearing it on your ankle is a no-no" - first time I hear this.!! I have always worn my chip champion chip or winning time on my ankle and nobody has ever told me differantly. Why would this be a No-No???

100% right DR - as I have been saying in the other posts - why all the molly coddeling of a few elites when the masses are inconvenienced and treated poorly. Everybody, who paid an entry, has a right to ride and not be stopped for a few individuals. Pass by all means, but dont expect favours.

Very respectable figures Bikemax - but I guess the cynics will say it was "assisted". I am prepared to conceed 360watts as he managed as acceptable given his size and weight, but now we have to look at that further in context. If Landis only managed (lets average it) 380watts over 5 mountain tops, is it not fair to be suspicious of Bassos " well over 400watts over 6 mountain stages"?

Bikemax - I see differant figures for Landis. According to some figures I saw he only averaged around 280 watts for most of stage 17 and was able to stay away. This says two things to me,either the peleton was not trying to catch him (doubtfull)or the rest of the peleton was so tired that exceeding that output rate of effort to catch him was not an option? Of course we have to assume, and I am prepared to accept, he far exceeded the 400watt barrier when he attacked, possibly even going as high as 500watts output or a bit more, but this is for a very short period of time, maybe 40 minutes, and he had to slow down the effort. I really do not believe that any athlete can maintain a 400 watt output for extended periods of 3/4 hours never mind days. I also think many athletes like to employ a bit of "athletic license" and overstate their ability, its good to demoralize the opposition and make themselves look good, but the fact is, the body has very definate physical limits that are simply not negotiable under "unassisted" conditions. Obviously drugs and various other external conditions extend these boundaries and make the rest of the world wonder "how the *** did he do that."

Yep, crux I agree. Bikemax, theres no other real data given by Pro Cycling except to say that "Bassos performance was not humanly possible given his physical potential"! So perhaps he is lighter 65kgs? or he can not normally achieve these stats constantly over 6 days of mountain stages? I think a climb like Alp D Huez is quick (well relitively) so achieving a high watt output over a short period is acceptable, but from what I can understand from the editorial is that this kind of output is not repeatable over 6 days over 6 mountain top finishes - which seems logical to me - no matter how good an athlete is there is a maximum human point which is not normal to exceed. Perhaps if you read the article in its entirity, you could glean a bit more from it??Perhaps I am missing something?? If you like, I will scan it in and copy you in - save you buying the mag unless of course you want to? widget2006-09-18 09:08:06

..............is the heading on an article in the latest Pro-Cycling Magazine............. it reads............ Having watched Basso and done his own sums to calculate Bassos power output, FDJs trainer Frederic Grappe felt uneasy.He double checked the figures : AVERAGE power output of well OVER 400 WATTS on the final ascents of six mountain stages.!!! Grappe frowned and forwarded the info to Christiaan Prudhomme (TDF Organising body) with the comment ........."to warn that Bassos athletic performance at the 2006 Giro are over the limit of whats "humanly possible" for a man of his physical potential. Said Prudhomme "If I can see it by comparing data then so can others" and Basso was put under immediate investigation. 6 weeks later he was banned. Prudhomme said " simple biological drug tests are no longer enough, in future we will look at biomechanical data as well to get an accurate gauge of someones natural physical ability.!" .....................I posted this because it sort of ties in with Bikemax post on WATT output and the data he posted. From what Bikemax said and from the data from elite cyclists like Basso, it seems that around 400watts is an absolute max for the majority of athletes and is not sustainable for long periods - certainly not 6 mountain stages. ...................So, is Simoni vindicated for calling him "extraterrestial" - I would say so and I would think Basso has a lot to explain away.

I think the defining word is "performance enhancing" but then what about those little nose clips some riders are wearing these days that supposedly allow you to breathe easier - is that not "performance enhancing??" - certainly not banned.!! ................and what about the rider in teams who have access to big budget and can afford, all the testing in wind tunnels, or the specialist doctors to moniter their blood etc and the specialist phisiotherapists, Psychiatrists etc - is that not performance enhancing??? Certainly not banned.!! All a bit grey if you ask me.!

Ahhhhhhhhhh, good one Mampara - won three times on a Cannondale,- just like mine!!. ........or maybe not, cos mine dont go up the hills so fast.

Shucks, sorry Craven..................... *Yes, the Giro didnt have L.A.

Ihave always enjoyed the Giro more than the tour for a number of reasons reasons - 1)The Giro has better scenery. 2)The giro has prettier podium girls. 3)The Giro organisers are not scared to mix up the stages, big mountains after three days etc. 4)The racing in the giro is better. 5)The Giro did not have L.A. 6)The Giro has the gorgeous young lady dressed as an angel. 7)The Giro is not dictated to by the media like the TDF so they can arrange stages and finishes as they like. 8)The Giro didnt have L.A - Oh sorry - mentioned that already.

The whole fiasco is a joke. In my opinion only T-Mobile have acted with any morals, they took the first decision at the tdf to toss Ullrich out once they heard the accusations, they then put pressure on the other teams to follow suit. Without the pressure from T-MOBILE I personally doubt this whole joke would have been in the news, both Ullrich and Basso would have riden and we would have been none the wiser. CSC cannot claim ANY HIGH GROUND HERE. Further to this T-Mobile put a time limit on their riders to prove innocence or face dismissal and stuck to it. None of the other teams least of all CSC has done this, in my opinion CSC should do the same and give Basso a deadline, prove your innoncence or face dismissal by xyz date and stick to it. My question is "Why have they not done this"?? Basso has also gone underground and is lying low hoping the whole thing will blow over and disappear - this is not the direction I would assume an innocent man would take.

I think the posting refers is rude, derogotary and uncalled for. I understand its an open forum (hense one runs the risk of such statements) but since when did it become necessary to expressly insult someone to make a point.?

I agree linnega, would certainly allieviate my problem anyway. Oh Well, I am certainly gonna miss checking your weather forcast anyway mate. - just my luck the wind WONT blow.!!

Yes, licensed Vets Scotty, I think you are right we cant use the delivery system.!! I have never had the need to try before.

Aaaah, what a mate.!!

Yes, I know, but I had already entered thinking as per the last two years we would be able to collect the numbers in Johannesburg, so did not elect the facility - otherwise I would have.I have no issues with the race - I really enjoy it, but I am not doing a Durban and back round trip on Sat evening to see a few retailers pedalling cheap tubes and pumps. I must say I am also disappointed in that I have requested information from the organisers about collecting in Johannesburg or Pietermaritzburg and have not recieved a reply (about 4 days now), so much for customer service.!! - even a "will come back to you later" would have sufficed. They are welcome to my R200.00 odd rand this year, maybe they can put the 100% profit from it (as I wont be riding and have cancelled my Hotel accomodation as well)................ towards a new customer liason consultant.!

There was even a nicer one posted somewhere with the "devil" standing just behind her. I dont know, but I would have imagined she would have caused a mass pile up!! Only in Italy, my friends, only in Italy. widget2006-09-08 02:03:38