DonatelloOnPinarello

There were a couple trail/gravity oriented Hardtail threads that were pretty active at a time. But they all seem to have quited down significantly lately. Not too sure why

So anyone in Willowmore able to give a weather update. If the news reports are to be believed it sounds like you guys are in for a proper test this year.

If it's just for commuting, Cyclelab has a range of bikes they selling branded as Marvel. They go for about R5000.00 new, and would at least have some amount of warranty etc es well. I considered buying one to test out as a commuter but never pulled the trigger, although, they seemed a lot better than the makro specials selling for twice as much

Mountainbru and I have crossed swords on this issue last week already, I must say to me personally this is less of an issue (unless of course it's a self navigated endurance ride or something). I quiet often prefer not really knowing what to expect, and even when the detailed map and gpx is available I don't bother with it. Whether it's a 35km or 75km route, I have a reasonable idea in my head how long I expect to be out there and then just ride and treat everything like a surprise. What were you guys doing 10 years ago when gps head units with mapping functions weren't readily available? Sometimes having too much information spoils the fun. That's why I hardly even ride with my edge anymore. Just use the watch to log the ride, and will have a look over the stats post ride, sometimes. Sometimes I think riders take themselves way too seriously.

They have all been caught up with the whole "funnel" concept, basically forcing you to sign up before you can get any real information, effectively tying you in to future marketing etc, whether you enter or not. I agree though, it's very annoying

Understandably your situation is somewhat frustrating. But your family members bought OTC shares in Leatt Corp understanding the admin that would be required to trade said shares. You mentioned the dilution in 2012 also not being good for initial shareholders, I beg to differ. If you look at the share price since 2008 initial listing, the share completely tanked, and was worth almost nothing in 2012. The share dilution took place in order to raise capital for growth/phase 2 expansion and the share price has been very gradually rising since then. Without that capital raise, chances are they would have folded, and the shares would be worth nothing now. The excellent growth in share value has only happened in the past 18 months. Shares were trading under 2USD at the end of 2019. They are now almost worth what they were at the IPO, but some more sustained growth will be required before initial investors could hope to even break even on selling their shares. The current growth is also on the back of the sudden and unexpected boom in the outdoor/action sports scene world wide, and it is not prudent to expect demand to continue growing like this long term, the board members would need to keep this all in mind, before deciding about offering dividends, while looking keeping cash reserves on hand for future growth and development. Another awesome year and no dividend might start raising legitimate questions. But a dividend is never a given, especially not in R&D heavy business. getting the shares transferred is surely the executor of the estates responsibility? This is something that fidicuiry officers deal with on a daily basis. If the shares are clearly given to the wife as part of the Will, a transfer will need to be affected. If not, the estate should sell the shares at their current value and give her the money. But this is all administrative trouble linked to an estate, which is always tricky. Not really a reflection on the Leatt Corp. Unless you are implying that they are refusing to effect the transfer of title? I’m sorry. I will go and burn all my Leatt products when I get home tonight in protest of the founders 22 year old transgression, that he repaid, and faced the music for. If it comes to light that Leatt is a fraud or a front for criminal activity or something, by all means link it to past missteps and tell us all I told you so. But what I see is a good business, built on solid products, that is now experiencing some time in the sun, and I don’t think a mistake made by the founder 22 years ago, and that he faced the music for matters. People make mistakes, if they own up and face the consequences, then It’s what they do next that matters. I think he has done alright. I don’t see how the two are related, or why you felt the need to mention it in the first place.

I honestly don’t know what to make of this thread. This is definitely the most quintessentially South African thing I have seen in a long time. This brand produces really amazing products, priced fairly, that riders from all across the world choose, because it’s a great brand. But here we are slagging off at them, making sure everyone remembers that the founder is a good for nothing scoundrel, because 22 years ago he was caught up in some insurance fraud. Got caught out engaging in a practice that was rife across the industry, and still is today, got made an example of, paid back the money, the whole R90k, and his R30k fine, moved on with his life, built this amazing business, that we should want to claim and be proudly South African about. The riders all over the world using their product couldn’t give a hoot where it’s from, they just care that it works, exactly as advertised. But Saffas are more concerned about that little misstep from 2 decades ago, and slating the man. Why is it so hard for us to celebrate our neighbours success in this country??? most of you spend your weekends playing with your toys that cost double what he “defrauded” the medical industry in 2000. While the business he built grossed almost $40mil dollars in sales in 2020….. but we can’t let go of the horrendous fraud he commitment a lifetime ago, and paid back. A fraud worth less the price of the bike your going to ride to an absolutely mediocre result this weekend. Give it a break. Why are South Africans incapable of celebrating someone else’s successes. Until I saw this thread, all I knew about Leatt was they made great products, and they were based in Cape Town, which was a cool anecdote to share with riders from other countries who don’t really even know where South Africa is. after reading this I’m glad to know they only generate 4% their revenue locally. I hope they also pay little to no tax here and I will fully support them when they eventually shut down their SA based HQ and take all of their business elsewhere. Who would blame them. Just like we now try hard to claim Elon Musk as one of ours. He saw the light, and moved on from this place a long time ago. I don’t blame him.

Please report back here if you manage a finish anywhere inside the top 30places, or top 10 in your age category. Otherwise it’s a fun day out with likeminded people, an excuse to pig out at the braai later in the afternoon, and a bit of an opportunity to benchmark yourself against a bunch of other armatures having a laugh on the weekend. If it gets any more serious than that, then it just doesn’t sound like fun anymore. Also, camelbacks are great, try it, it might surprise you. ????????

Okay, well in that case I can’t help. I rode it marathon there in 2019 last, so doubt my track would be accurate still. I’m sure they will send something out later this week, normally 24-48 hours before the event. But I think your overthinking this one. There are some kopjes, that you will criss cross, but no serious climbing. If you have done any sort of prep, you should expect to comfortably ride at a 19-20km/h average, so plan to be out for about 3.5 hours. 2 bottles and a small camelback should be plenty if you want to avoid the feed stations (I would under current conditions). It is a pretty easy ride. From my memory of the previous race, the climbs were mostly short punchy things, interspersed with long flat gravel/jeep/single track sections to recover (or make up time on) depending on your strategy.

No need to worry about GPX files, the trail seeker events are exceptionally well marked, and there will be a Marshall at every point where there’s even a slight chance of taking a wrong turn. don’t be too sure about the lack of elevation, it makes a couple loops through the Kopjes, and depending one where in the pack you are, the technical sections will often cause a traffic jam. The trick is to stay close enough to the front runners in your start batch, but not to end up too close to the tail of the batch ahead of you, as you approach the technical bits. If you get caught in traffic, keep calm, remind yourself it’s all just a bit of fun. It’s much better than being that guy that treats the newbies so badly horribly they decide to never do another race again.

Only if you promise not to use it as a trail bike. ????

I agree with you, this really is a Mountainbike race. I was trying to wind up the gravel bikers a bit. (I still don’t really understand why Gravel-bikes are such a big thing though, or what actually differentiates them from from my first MTB back when I was a kid - other than handlebars, but this is not the thread for that discussion) I must quote the opening post though: “The Silk Road Mountain Race is a fixed route, unsupported, single-stage cycling race through the mountains of Kyrgyzstan. The clock does not stop and there are no prizes. It follows gravel, single and double track and old soviet roads that have long been forgotten and fallen into disrepair. There is very little tarmac. There is some walking, and at times there is great distances between resupply points.“ I mean that does sound like the conditions gravel riders always use to justify gravel bikes. Gravel, jeep tracks, roads and a bit of single track????. I bet your the guys that always says how unfit he is, and then half way through day 2 your mates are begging you to slow down. Every group has one of them….???? On a serious not though, my advice is just so do it, get an entry as soon as you can, and then just go for it. Don’t set too many parameters to first achieve, your going to keep delaying, because there’s always going to be another box to tick off before your ready…. So as long as your not leaving your family to starve or whatever, just do it. This is admittedly a pretty extreme event, and if you take the full 2 weeks, you need to cover 120km min per day. Which is a lot. But also, with this kind of thing, mental strength trumps everything else. Obviously a good amount of physical prep is important. But if the base training is in place, and your head is right, you will get stronger as the days go on. I have seen this on a few big unsupported rides I have done, as well as Epic and when I hiked the Grand Traverse solo. You will never be “fit enough”, you just have to figure out a way for that not to matter.

Since we are stirring and all - Dirt Jump bikes are Hardtails, running a max of 100mm travel, but normally only 80mm, on coil spring forks, using 26inch wheels. I don’t know about you, but this looks like a lot more than a metre to me? (Sorry, picture didn’t load earlier) I’m stirring now, and I also don’t want to imply that dual sussers make no sense. They all do certain things very well. I love me 100mm dual sus XC bike, and it’s the reason I would never even consider a gravel bike. Because to me it does everything a gravel bike does, and a whole lot more. But the OP asked about HT trail bikes, and the next post popped up to say HT can’t be good trail bikes. That kind of thinking is seriously flawed. Just like you would rather have a Allu Dual sus instead of a carbon HT, For trail riding I will rather have an affordable allu hardtail trail bike instead of a top of the range dual sus XC bike. I’m willing to put money down that my 140mm 27.5 Hardtail trail bike is less compromised in technical trail, either climbing or descending, than your dual sus is. I know for a fact it’s less compromised than my my carbon dual sus XC bike.

This is a definitely bucket list race for me. Both this and the trans Mongolia one too (Mongolia bike challenge is however a supported stage race). Promised myself I will tick those off before I turn 40. what I love about the list of competitor bikes is just how unpretentious it is. Yes, sure there are some very unique and properly pricy rigs in the mix there but even those are just beautifully functional machines, being used like they were meant to be. Unlike most local, fully supported stage races, where every second bike is the highest specced carbon machine launched this past season. I also find it interesting, but not surprising, that the majority are using Mountain Bikes (albeit most with rigid forks and a bunch with drop bars). Even a fair share of the bikes in the list which are sold as “gravel bikes” are the type that lean much closer to the MTB side of things (1x drivetrains, 1.95 or wider tires etc). Just adds to my opinion that gravel bikes are a pointless compromise. If they were really that good at handling mild MTB stuff, and then so much better on gravel and tar, then they should dominate events like these.

Will see you there. I will be the idiot on a steel framed hardtail, so Don’t stress too much, that it a pretty descent trail bike as it is. If you want to spend a few rand for to “trailify” the bike a bit more, fit a descent trail/enduro riser handlebar with a good amount of sweep to get you a bit more upright and your weight back. (but I suggest doing that after this weekends race. Rather just ride the bike set up like you are used to for now). An extra token in the rear shock won’t hurt either, to give you a bit more ramp up in case you case a landing, and use all the rear travel. I could be wrong, but I think you are good for up to a 2.4 tire on that frame, but again don’t go changing too much. Do the race first and see how it goes. If you are comfortable hitting that road gap on the bike, you are good to go mate. I *** myself every time, even on 160mm bike, while other okes will do it on a dirt jump bikes which are basically bmx’s with 80mm forks. If you want someone to chat to about lines etc on the day, feel free to drop me a PM. I haven’t done a race in a very long time, but happy to share some advice about line choices and general riding chit chat

Also, don’t forget this entire thread:

Yes, you get awesome hardtail trail bikes, but I highly doubt you gonna find many in the classifieds here. Wrong audience I’m afraid. Couldn’t agree more, but when the entire hardtail offering available locally consists of either cheap entry level XC bikes, or ultra rare, super expensive ultralight XCO weapons ,you aren’t going to see that anytime soon. Ossie NL comments below is a case in point. Look a little beyond your nearest Cycle Lab or Spez concept store - Hard-tails are amazing trail machines, and fun, and can provide a lot of bang for your buck enjoyment. here is some light reading to hopefully teach you the error of your ways: (read that in comic sans please) https://www.cotic.co.uk/product/BFeMAX https://www.ninerbikes.com/products/sir-9/ https://nukeproof.com/products/2021-scout-275 https://vitusbikes.com/collections/sentier/products/vitus-sentier-29-vrx-mountain-bike https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-ZA/bikes/chameleon and that is only scratching the surface… in Europe almost every enduro race has a fully subscribed Hardtail category. The mega-avalanche has a good deal of riders on 130-160mm Hardtails. Trail Hardtails make amazing bike packing/Touring rigs if you want to get off the gravel on your bike packing adventure.

I probably didn’t make my point well enough/clear enough. I agree with you 100%. I just don’t think it’s always that simple to re-arrange/replan etc, especially if a certain expectation has been set as to what to expect. Also, it changes form orginiser to orginiser as to how deep their pockets are, and how much of a knock they can sustain in order to pivot their product. Those that can afford to, and don’t, are shooting them selves in the foot, and will probably learn to regret that in the future.

There is nothing wrong with the stage race format under normal “non Covid” circumstances, essentially. They can be good fun and all, but I don’t understand the obsession with them, to the point that it seems to be the only type of event “the market” wants. The pricing is unfortunately like with most, driven by what the market is willing to pay, and because the format allows the corporates to use these as 3-5 day high intensity relationship building with their high value clients, and write off the entries as legitimate business expenditure, the pricing, and the wait lists will keep growing. Can’t blame them either, it sure does beat a round of golf, and no matter the entry price, it’s good value for money compared to greens fees and memberships at the elite golf clubs. And their suitcase of money too, most likely. It’s commendable they did what they could to put on something, and they deserve to be supported in future for doing this, but every time an orginiser needs to do something like this, it’s going to hurt their long term sustainability. Hence many rather sitting back and waiting for “safer” operating conditions, which is also unfortunately not sustainable for very long. Either way, they are stuffed. So, Cyclocross then…. Somehow that always seems to take place in a field of mud????????

Yeah sorry. I got a little carried away here. I’m going to cut back on my posting for a bit while I decompress. It’s been a tough week

There is an exception to every rule. I’m pretty sure you did not upset or annoy anyone, or ruin anyone’s ride/race. I was pointing out the extreme, and trying to suggest David should not take himself, or the eBikers too seriously.

The chances that you are in contention for a podium I’m going to go out on a limb here and say are slim. Also, if you were going for an elite poduim finish, the e-bike crowd would be so far behind you you probably wouldn’t notice them anyway. For the rest of us, this is an amature/recreational event. Your only really racing against yourself amd your mates anyway. Just ignore the ebike positions on the finisher logs, and call it a day. It will only upset you if you let it. that said, I agree that being passed by an ebiker on a climb only to be held up again as soon as it gets technical is a tad annoying. But if I’m honest, the dirt-roadies on regular bikes that are normally much fitter than me tend to do this anyway, without needing pedal assistance.

To add to what Jewbacca is saying, about cyclists themselves being the problem. There have been a number of DIY races using the format you mentioned up in Gauteng at least, but this also doesn’t seem to keep everyone happy. The common gripes you hear are: - I’m not going to pay anything extra if there isn’t event infrastructure in place (I kinda get that, The vibe is a big part of why people enter events, and obviously that is not okay at the moment) - The GPS timing isn’t accurate enough. Guys seem to get vehemently upset about a second or two on the leaderboard when they are sitting at 151st anyway. I think this will remain an issue, until people start to realise that this is meant to be recreational.

Wether people like it or not, accept it or not, this is the only way forward. But we are so woefully behind the rest of the world in terms of vaccine rollout, it’s going to be at least another 18 months before this becomes a reality here. By the time they have vaccinated the 35 and under fully, it will have been too long since the oldies got their jabs, and the immunity will be waning, so we are going to be stuck in a perpetual cycle of catch up

This post, so well structured and level headed, somehow has me so perplexed at the same time. I cannot agree with you more on certain aspects, and at the same time, I’m so far at odds with you on others. But I think this kind of discussion is desperately needed. Whether the right people in the industry are willing to listen is another story altogether. The bit I put in bold is the real issue for me. This is the perception so many seem to have, but the reality is it’s just not the case. The two big mistakes people make is believing that sports events are massively lucrative. They just aren’t. As a business they only make sense when all the ancillaries are added on, and even then, they still need sponsors cheques to actually make it worth while. as I already mentioned before, the sponsors cheques normally only pay out based on a successful event taking place, and the ancillary things, like fees for having a stand in the riders village for mechanics, physios, bike shops, supplement suppliers etc etc only get paid if there is an actual event. Furthermore, your money paid over for your entry has been paid forward to a large extent to service providers many months before the event actually takes place. That is why most events sell early bird entries. Discounting an early bird entry is essentially cheaper than the interest on borrowing the money to pay the venue/Accomodation/ablution/caterers et al in advance. They may at best hold onto a small % themselves, and that normally goes towards salaries etc for the full time staff during the 12 odd months between events. The notion that organisers are sitting on your money earning interest while riding out the pandemic is simply not fair. At the same time then saying the service providers they have paid are doing the same is also not fair. Being paid for 1 event, that then has to be postponed, assuming it’s postponed before you have incurred real costs, is one thing, but that assumes they have a bunch of other paying gigs actually taking place. But when it becomes months upon months of postponements, with no new events on the horizon, but overheads still needing to be paid, it becomes a problem. Most of the value chain in the events industry is now in this boat together. They are “sitting” on deposits/entries paid in late 2019/early 2020, and no new income since. They have had to pay rent and salaries etc as long as they could. Then they had to start laying people off, downsizing etc, doing whatever to keep the lights on. When the events can finally go ahead, the customer still expects the same service they initially paid for. The organiser still expects the services that it initially paid the service provider for, and so the expectation moves down the line. All this after effectively 18 months of zero new income. Essentially everyone has been paying Paul for the past 18 months, but there has been no new Peter to “Rob” or even legitimately bill. In normal circumstances this would never happen, because even for small companies that run 1 or 2 events a year, it remains cyclical, very much like farming, where this years harvest pays all your expenses to grow the next crop. Except in events now, it’s been 1.5 seasons without any crop, and when the crop does finally come in, the people you borrowed from (the paying participant, that entered in 2019) still wants their share. So if you were to now insist on a refund, the organiser would need to loan the money to refund you from elsewhere, and the banks, who usually sponsor these events, aren’t exactly keen to extend credit to events companies at the moment, since they are probably already leveraged to the hilt by now. The event companies have no choice at the moment but to try go ahead as planned, because they owe people who have already paid for that event the experience they paid for. Their only option now to try actually stay in the black, is to extend their logistics capacity to the absolute limit, and allow a limited number of new/extra entries to pump some fresh cash into the business. They cannot afford to cancel these events. The banks won’t loan them the money to refund everyone. The negative PR of a cancelation with no refunds would make any possible new format event a non starter. So, as much as they may want to go back to the drawing board and do things differently next time, they can’t do that until they have fulfilled the current obligations. With regards to events that have already been postponed now for a second or third time, I have a terrible feeling that there will be a number of events companies that go insolvent during the course of next year, before they can even attempt to run the events they have sold entries to. When that happens, I foresee a number of threads here and posts on FB calling for the blood of the directors/owners. Because double standards when it comes to dealing with small businesses compared to huge Corporates is our second favourite pastime. For example, When everything went belly up last year March/April, the airlines and the big hotel chains just said sorry for you, and people lost thousands of rands worth of reservations/tickets. People got a bit upset, some maybe even made a snarky comment on FB, but essentially accepted it and moved on. But the same people that lost tens of thousands of rands to comair, Lufthansa, BA, SunInternational etc, and let it go, are still holding events companies to task over event entries. Those multinationals got government bailouts etc, and still paid nothing forward to the client, but everyone just accepts it for what it is. Events companies and hospitality providers got nothing, their business interruption insurance just refused to pay, everyone must just move on and accept. But every time an event gets postponed or they update their refund policy, or make changes to try and go ahead somehow, there’s threads with dozens of comments about it here, and Facebook comments into the hundreds criticising the organisers for being greedy, and earning interest on their hard earned money etc etc. But maybe it’s time to look at this in some perspective. I’m going to use Ecobound as an example - I have no connection to the organisation, but they are a good example, since they have received severe criticism as to their handing of this, especially regards opening 2021 entries before having ran the 2020 event. There were a totals of 450 individual spots for each event (race and repeat). So a total of 900 entries at about R2650.00 per person. That means the event took in a total of just over under R2.4Mil for the 2020 event. So a total annual sales/revenue of R2.4mil for an entire 12 month period. If you take it that the event has to employ 2 full time employees just to manage the arrangment of the event, at a low salary for an event planner/logistics manager at this level (let’s assume these people have some other projects, so they aren’t paid a representative full time salary), so R25k gross per month each. That’s R600k per year. The event needs office space, assume it’s shared with other business, (ecobound is in garden route mall, but run bikamino and 2Hell&Back from there too), so if the office rental is R20k/month, let’s call TB portion R7k. That’s a further R84k. Entries are done online and paid by credit card. If they managed to negotiate a really sweet deal with the payment processer, they still paying at least 2%. So that’s a further R50k. Web hosting and maintenance of the online entry system, plus other IT related expenses, let’s call it a cheap R1500.00pm. Thats another R18k. Then liabilty insurance for the event, R25k per departure, so another R50k simce the route hasn’t really changed much over the past few years, we can assume they don’t need to do much recce trips etc. But let’s say they do about 10k km a year of driving in the planning of the event (this would probably be a lot more, but I’m being conservative). Assuming they use a typical late model 4x4 DC for this, so about R6.00km at conservative rates. That’s another R60k They need an entertainment budget for wooing new sponsors, and reaffirming arrangements with existing sponsors, negotiating deals with suppliers/service providers etc. If they super frugal, R3000.00 a month ought to do. Another R36k a year. So before they have paid a single service provider even a cent, or bought a single piece of merchandise for your goodie back, printed a single number board, or anything of the sort. Essentially without incurring a single direct event related expense, they have already spent at least R830k, and that’s being ultra conservative. I think it’s clear to see that once they start paying deposits to other service providers, printing race boards, making up goodie bags and so on, there is very little left out of the entry fees as “profit”. Now remember TB is actually a small event, organised by a family run small business. Unlike a lot of other events, there is no big Title Sponsor. This event actually needs to make an income for ecobound. The last successful event was in August 2019, 24 months ago. If you really think they are just “sitting” on the entry fees, think again. I do think the smart thing to do is not to enter any events for the time being, but if you had entered and are waiting on an event to eventually take place, be patient, and be thankful that you can actually afford to spend money on a hobby like cycling…