porky

- youve lost me bud.?

Now they have to replace faulty kit with new kit "for free" but realise that there is nothing for free. They need to ship the faulty kit they have exchanged out back to the manufacturer at their "cost". The reason why manufacturers chose a distribution model over a direct model is to pass on these mundane tasks to another party. There is money to be made by a distributor' date=' but suddenly there is not enough money being made, so they hike the price up. [/quote'] Hmm, yah, I agree with your post in principle, maybe a little basic, but, yah,..........however,I think the replacements and the manufacturer / distributor link needs a little elaboration to be fair. The issue is usually that manufacturers dont just replace any product sent to them by the distributor, they will evaluate ALL returns to see if they were indeed, (a) within warranty, (b) manufacturer fault, © not abused, and any other criteria they may have, replacements are not just shipped out because you are a nice guy, "No Siree bob" - so, the distributor here sits with the issue, do I loose a customer because I dont repair, replace or do I keep the customer happy and just replace, but take a chance the supplier wont replace to me, leaving me out of pocket.?? Manufacturers also utilize a "Return Ratio" formula to determine if all is legit, in other words they will know in their biggest market they get say a 2% return, now suddenly say they get a 10% return from SA (a small market) - obviously they will be very cautious if not downright suspicious, free returns are very costly to a manufacturer, in these tough times they will be turning over every return three times before issueing a credit or a replacement. Manufacturers also look for a distribution company because they may not understand every countries market, what they want, what they need and are able to afford, logistically and financially it also makes sense to them, only a distributor can provide this info and financial security, but it comes at a cost to the distributor, in the holding of bulk product, accounts to resellers which may or may not get paid, technical issues, and so on and so on. Thats why I say the Park Tool issue here is odd to say the least, under the normal "chain of distribution / sale", the manufacturer (Park Tool) would refer the problem to its local distributor for attention and not get involved. The very fact they got involved tells me, that perhaps, all is not cozy with the local distributor, and the relationship here, if there is one, is strained!. To me it says Park Tool USA is concerned and protecting its market, independantly of any local distribution, which is very,very, unusual, thats usually left to the appointed distributor. porky2009-10-07 23:33:45

Yah, well, the act do's allow the manufacturer or supplier to recommend a sale price to the reseller of their goods providing they comply with two conditions. 1)The supplier must make it CLEAR that the recommendation is NOT binding, in other words the reseller can NOT be penalised if they sell below the RRP. Furthermore there must be a clause in the suppliers agreement with the reseller stating this in not binding to comply with the act. 2)If the price is printed on the package, the words Recommended Retail must appear next to the price. Its a bit of a grey area in my opinion, because if everybody sticks to the RRP without waver, it could be argued that it then becomes "Minimum Price Maintainance" which is illegal, but proving that is the difficult point. The act just hopes really that the resellers of the goods know their rights, and will sell at the price which they feel comfortable with (lower or higher than RRP) and promote fair competition.

Ok I see your point. But the warranty should not last indefinitely if the unit could last longer than year. If a manufacturer is not willing to extend the warranty on a new replacement unit' date=' what does that say about their confidence in the product? Are they expecting it to pack up again? If Avnic or Garmin or whoever is under no obligation to replace the unit out of warranty, I would have had to buy an additional two units by now. Irritable would not have been the word....[/quote'] Yah,.... look,....I hear you, I am just explaining the rationale behind the issue. All I can suggest, is to talk to them in person,throw yourself on their mercy and explain the whole shebang, suggest you are a tad unhappy and its not what you had expected, but always leave them an escape route, a way they can feel good about helping you. Of course if they dont,....................feel free to shout.!

I dont know anything about Polar and the prices locally, but in terms of the SA competitions act of 1998 States -"Minimum price resale maintainance" is prohibited, and parties in a vertical relationship are prohibited from engaging in such practices. In normal english it simply means, that firms WILL BE REGARDED as having engaged in resale price maintainance where it is agreed or dictated to resell goods AT OR ABOVE a set price floor. "Minimum resale price maintainance" is unlawfull "per se" which means that NO DEFENSE CAN BE RAISED for engaging in such conduct. Obviously, the rationale behind this law is to enhance competition between companies, but I think a lot of price fixing is going on in SA in all areas, witness the recent spate of convictions in construction, automobile spares etc, its not just in one industry like perhaps, cycling. porky2009-10-07 00:53:50

Well if the guarantee works the way you explained it' date=' only the first one was still under guarantee. But why would a replacement unit not receive a new 1 year guarantee, it is brand new? Exactly the same as if I would have went and bought it new in a shop? Again, not the guarantee that is the issue here, the product is! It is not the guarantee causing the unit to switch off.[/quote'] The reason the guarantee dosnt work on an extension basis is because then you could (theoretically) keep extending your warranty indefinately, and the supplier would remain liable indefinately. There has to be a definate start and a definate end to any warranty. If you pay for a new unit, thats differant, but your contract comes into force on day of first purchase and runs 12 months, irrespective of how many units you may get replaced in the 12 month term. This is common with 99% of guarantees, something to just keep in mind for next time,- small print and all that stuff.! On the guarantee / Avnic and the known product fault issue, its really 6 of one and half a dozen of the other, you claim Avnic has been helpfull, but in respect you are still without a unit because Avnic is apparently not acknowledging the issue you claim is well known - the two issues are intertwined, if you were sorted out you wold have been happy with the product and Avnic, not so?, - but now you are irritable because the unit fails and you feel you are out of pocket and badly serviced.! I hear your issue, all I am just saying, is that, even if this is a known fault to Avnic (and I dont know if it is) they are not under any obligation to repair or replace any unit out of warranty, - just because Garmin do's so in the USA, it must not be assumed its an international practise.

How is that going to save the bike shops, may I ask.? You cant have SELECTIVE duty payable only to some. If duty is payable its payable by ALL, so all that would happen is the importer would also pay the extra duty, compound those costs down to the LBS and the consumer.! - all that would happen is everybody would pay more. Anyway, this is just a moot point. SA is a signatory to the International Free Trade Agreement, which in a nutshell means, anyone can import anything they like and sell it at any price they like as long as they do so within the confines of the laws / rules of the country and pay all applicable taxes and duties. Nobody can stop CWC importing anything - its not possible. The issue is probably as Go-lefty mentioned, that CWC probably still buys some lines locally from the official importers, and this is where they can possibly make life difficult, by refusing to supply them with lines they need locally - personally, I think its a short sighted attitude but, indicative of a young industry in distress. porky2009-10-06 03:45:53

Strange, I have 15 Garmin products,(each company bakkie has a Nuvi 300)but I personally have four Garmins including the 305 which I use almost daily without issue. Avnic has been superb in after sales service, replacing units, repairing units and upgrading maps at no cost, last year my oldest unit (Quest) (at least 6 years old) lost its LCD screen, I dropped it off at Avnic to see if it could be repaired, the guy said he was doubtfull, but will look, come back tomorrow. When I arrived the next day he said, when they tried to fix the unit it broke, sorry Sir, nothing we can do.! I was just gathering my thoughts,when he smiled, reached under the table and gave me a brand new Quest, - our compliments Sir. From my experience Avnic have passed every test with flying colours, from what I read there seems there is a massive varience in percieved service levels, - can customer attitude be to blame.?

Hmm, I am just interested to know why people insist on buying bike specific tools.? Okay, obviously, specialised tools are excluded, but why on earth buy a Park Tool cable cutter, or a Park Hammer and mallet combo, etc when you can buy a Stahlwille, Gedore, Craftsman or other Major industrial / Automative tool brand for the same price or cheaper, is designed for the industrial world and will probably carry a "lifetime" replacement guarantee.?? Just seems odd to me.

HR training is not all its cracked up to be in my opinion. All this HR less your age etc is just a generalisation, some people (like myself) just rev at a higher rate, and some will rev a bit lower, work out your own system and forget the generalisations. Personally, I think its better to train as you feel, your body will tell you when its tired and when its strong, HR training dos not take into account your mental position at the time and the mind plays a huge roll. Many years ago, I spent a year training at the University of Boston, HR moniters were hardly known back then, but if you look at the figures for all the major marathons, times have NOT kept pace with technology, with all the tecno crap athletes use today, one would expect a massive improvement in times - hasnt happened - that alone tells me something, that the body is still the best gauge of performance, use a moniter if you like, but dont let it become your God its still only a mechanical tool which can not account for many physical and mental variences which all play a part in your daily well been - listen closely to your body and you will be fine.

Yah, another good point skelmpie, especially when its held on a sunday, people get up at the crack of dawn all week, so come Sunday, many want to relax a bit, enjoy a leisurely breakfast with the family, and THEN take themselves off to an event. Few spectators are going to get up at 4am to go stand in the dark and watch a cycle race. So, sadly, by the time most people are ready and going out, all cycling events are over, the hot dog vendor has gone home and the 20000 th finisher is coming in, okay its great for them and I have all respect, but I personally find little excitement in it. porky2009-09-30 14:12:23

I am not sure you can change the format of races in this country without a MASSIVE loss of participants. I am a fanatical runner, and a part time cyclist, swimmer, canoeist any endurance activity really, I have been competing for 30 years or more in running, plus, I have been involved in quite a few race organisations, so I know a bit as well, and frankly, South Africans are not great SPECTATORS, but they are great PARTICIPANTS. Let me explain, even though I am a keen runner, cyclist etc, unless, I am participating its highly unlikely I will go spectate, (however I will go watch the bokke play or the Proteas etc) and I am not alone in this. Why wont I go spectate, well, its boring, frankly, endurance activities like cycling,running etc have poor spectator value because the course takes the particpants away from the spectators and one only gets to see a very small portion of the event as opposed to a stadium game, and of course, once the winner crosses the line, we all go home.! Whats the enjoyment factor in that? Stand around in the hot sun for three hours, watch the winner cross the line and go home. I (and millions of others) have no interest in watching the 20th place finisher, or the 200th or the 2000th or heaven forbid, 20.000 finisher,unless its friends or family. However I will go and watch a top level rugby match, or a cricket match or even soccer because I am watching 90 odd minutes of the countries / worlds best, I can watch everything unfold before me, theres great entertainment before and during the match, (cheerleaders, jokers, dancing girls) theres even supporting games on occassion, cycling (and running) take themselves far too seriously, spectators want entertainment, they want to enjoy the day, and a few bikes going around a course is just part of it. Hang man, I even tried to go watch track racing once, shee, never been so bored in my entire life, nothing happened, there was no vibe, no excitement, no buzz, not even any music, everyone looked deathly serious and were all huddled around in whispering groups, cracking a smile was a definate no-no..............I left after 40 minutes and it was 35 minutes too long.! Compared to a buzzing, vibey,exciting rugby match??........................its no wonder this dicipline of cycling is almost dead. porky2009-09-30 08:21:34

Yah, I had a similar situation a few weeks back, even got advice from a hub member on the repair. I also bashed a hole in my sump and it drained dry, however I didnt drive the car so there was no engine damage. I contacted my broker and in 10 minutes M&F had authorised the claim. No questions asked. Anyway, I ended up not claiming as the repair was less than initially quoted, and after paying the excess it wasnt worth claiming for a few grand, so I just paid myself, but, yah, I also think your insurance was doing its best to not pay.

I have to say I really have no tolerance or patience with posts like this.! What it has to do with the topic is beyond me. To me its just a SA bashing post with absolutely no foundation in the topic. Please tell me the relationship between crime, crime statistics, and our "barbaric society" and stupid people in large groups riding in the middle of the road.?

Great post from mtbguru! Since this problem mostly occurs out of guarantee period' date=' I dont see a problem doing this [/quote'] Hmm, yah, I enjoyed reading it. Just shows virtually everything can be repaired with some thought. I have used my 305 for more than two years with no issues, but should it start switching off I will most certainly give the repair a try, what do you have to lose.? I had a similar issue with one of my scuba computers, after a lot of searching I found a repair similar to this on the net, tried it out and it worked perfectly and the computer is still working fine today.

As far as I was aware last year they asked folk NOT to ride the route twice, as they did at the Argus. Pretty sure if you contact race office they will confirm this.